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660M BOTTOM UP GRADING Ballarat page  1 2 


Jason Caley
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 215
Dogs 6 / Races 0

28 Dec 2019 08:56


 (1)
 (0)


So what’s wrong with ‘bottom up’ rank races over other distances and tracks?
Or are we supposed to continue to send them to Mount Gambier time graded or Pathway NSW?

I would’ve thought there’s an incentive to keep struggling and frankly ordinary dogs in Victoria but it doesn’t seem so really if you consider Tier 3 while ok doesn’t guarantee a start (random draw selection) and that good dogs drift in and out of T3 status all the time.

There’s no such thing as a “low grade” meeting for dogs that do everything right albeit slowly in Victoria. Those dogs have to get moved on presently and that adds to our supply woes here and now.

There are rank limited meetings but they just penalise good dogs (sub 200 rank) while still not giving the bottom ranked dogs a look in.


Peter Griffen
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 61
Dogs 19 / Races 0

28 Dec 2019 09:45


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We don't have a shortage of race dogs in Victoria BALLARAT Bendigo Meadows etc have in excess of 100 + trials a week check clubs trial times plenty capable to race maybe another problem



Jason Caley
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 215
Dogs 6 / Races 0

28 Dec 2019 10:02


 (0)
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^^ lol.
Fair point Peter. We have no shortage of dogs trialling. Just plenty of nominations getting extended like clockwork. Good point raised.


Peter Griffen
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 61
Dogs 19 / Races 0

28 Dec 2019 10:39


 (2)
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Lol
When we remove the matting from in front of the boxes and have all push on boxes I'm sure we have FULL FIELDS NO NOM EXTENSION AND LESS INJURY'S


Hayden Gilders
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 783
Dogs 26 / Races 0

28 Dec 2019 12:05


 (1)
 (0)


Jason there’s nothing at all wrong with bottom up ranking. Except having the least popular distance (as is evidenced by historical nomination counts )rolled out for the introduction of same. With every runner in the field receiving stake money . And the winner receiving 3k stake money when 30% of vic dogs race for 875 max every week. AND then these 30% are encouraged to nominate for full stake money races and will only get a run if there are insufficient nominations from better quality dogs to fill the fields. GRV would do just as well by offering to pay the food bills for selected dogs for the next 12 months and abandon the idea. There is not a modicum of evidence showing support by grv (or participants for that matter) for 650/680 metre races or any other distance race. Recent track builds show no provision for distance racing. Group races are rewarded relatively poorly compared to sprints.

The argument prosecuted on this forum on other threads for distance racing is that they are good for turnover. Note given that the cut of turnover from TAB is approx 15% betting turnover needs to be increased by at least 20k to break even. It is also suggested that the longer the race, the fewer the injuries so distance races must be good. There are no figures presented that show average number of starters ie fewer dogs to cause interference or the compactness or the competiveness of the race.
In the middle of summer free trials to get your mediocre dog in condition for this?
Neither GRV or the promoters of this scheme have established any kpi(s) to determine the success or failure of this venture so it is based on gut (or lower) feel as to weather it is a once only or repeated happening.

The hook of the free trials is to encourage newbys to the distance but neither Grv nor the promoters intend to implement any additional checks or balances on the health of the dogs that partake.

It will be interesting to see if the promoters of the scheme have a Smokey or 2 in the kennel that may reward their self interest.


Sheldon Hamilton
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 13
Dogs 0 / Races 0

28 Dec 2019 23:09


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Mark Donohue wrote:

Is it Open Grading?

I like the concept as it keeps greyhounds, who are looking for middle distance races, in work and something to aim for.

Thank you Mark. Exactly the reason we have introduced this series.


Sheldon Hamilton
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 13
Dogs 0 / Races 0

28 Dec 2019 23:13


 (1)
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Richard Gray wrote:

What a great initiative, the person or people that came up with this deserve a raise. I don't get why maidens are not able to compete though....

Rich.

Appreciate your sentiments and Richard it is a work in progress. Run the series see what actually comes of it. Talk to participants encourage trainers to communicate with the club what they desire.

Richard it is a start and like they say have to start somewhere..



Sheldon Hamilton
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 13
Dogs 0 / Races 0

28 Dec 2019 23:32


 (1)
 (0)


Jason Caley wrote:

So what’s wrong with ‘bottom up’ rank races over other distances and tracks?
Or are we supposed to continue to send them to Mount Gambier time graded or Pathway NSW?

I would’ve thought there’s an incentive to keep struggling and frankly ordinary dogs in Victoria but it doesn’t seem so really if you consider Tier 3 while ok doesn’t guarantee a start (random draw selection) and that good dogs drift in and out of T3 status all the time.

There’s no such thing as a “low grade” meeting for dogs that do everything right albeit slowly in Victoria. Those dogs have to get moved on presently and that adds to our supply woes here and now.

There are rank limited meetings but they just penalise good dogs (sub 200 rank) while still not giving the bottom ranked dogs a look in.

This post is spot on the money. Ballarat may just be the start or kick along for trainers that looking for a graded distance race. now if we can find 4 new distance dogs each week slowly we create a pool of distance stock.





Kevin Wright
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 5321
Dogs 1 / Races 1

28 Dec 2019 23:42


 (1)
 (0)


Sheldon hamilton wrote:

Jason Caley wrote:

So what’s wrong with ‘bottom up’ rank races over other distances and tracks?
Or are we supposed to continue to send them to Mount Gambier time graded or Pathway NSW?

I would’ve thought there’s an incentive to keep struggling and frankly ordinary dogs in Victoria but it doesn’t seem so really if you consider Tier 3 while ok doesn’t guarantee a start (random draw selection) and that good dogs drift in and out of T3 status all the time.

There’s no such thing as a “low grade” meeting for dogs that do everything right albeit slowly in Victoria. Those dogs have to get moved on presently and that adds to our supply woes here and now.

There are rank limited meetings but they just penalise good dogs (sub 200 rank) while still not giving the bottom ranked dogs a look in.

This post is spot on the money. Ballarat may just be the start or kick along for trainers that looking for a graded distance race. now if we can find 4 new distance dogs each week slowly we create a pool of distance stock.

Handicap racing always attracted big betting pools ....

Maidens should be encouraged so its a bit disappointing for Ballarat to not to include these dogs under Novice.. 0 to 1 or 0 to 2 wins ...

It great to see a forward thinking Club take the bull by the horns ...well done


Sheldon Hamilton
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 13
Dogs 0 / Races 0

08 Feb 2020 03:37


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WEEK 1 BALLARAT DISTANCE RACING PRELUDES

Slowest 8 & Fastest 8 over the 3 weeks progress to slowest 8 and fastest 8 final.

RESULTS WEEK 1 3 HEATS

SLOWEST 8. (S)

EDDIE 39.149 s
CLOSE YOUR EYES 39.094 s
SO TOUGH 38.824 s
SUPER BLU 38.754 s
CABIN FEVER 38.736 s
GARDENERS BOYO 38.646 s
MIDNIGHT TITAN 38.628 s
CAVEMAN YAP 38.489 s

BLACK SPRING 38.453
DOUBLE SUPREME 38.335
BRONELLY JET 38.326

FASTEST 8. (F)

SHIMA MIST 38.249 F
BLACK CANVAS 38.248 F
SEVE ROSE 38.215 F
KEEPER OF KEYS 38.163 F
MIDNIGHT MYSTERY 37.931 F
ROCKSTAR PRINCE 37.870 F
ROCKSTAR BEAV 37.758 F
UP AND ABOUT 37.682 F

All in all an excellent nights racing.



Hayden Gilders
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 783
Dogs 26 / Races 0

08 Feb 2020 11:07


 (0)
 (0)


B
Sheldon hamilton wrote:

WEEK 1 BALLARAT DISTANCE RACING PRELUDES

Slowest 8 & Fastest 8 over the 3 weeks progress to slowest 8 and fastest 8 final.

RESULTS WEEK 1 3 HEATS

EDDIE 39.149 s
CLOSE YOUR EYES 39.094 s
SO TOUGH 38.824 s
I went along and had a look at this meeting and fwiw my take was that there were 19 dogs competing in 3 heats (not good for betting turnover) there was a fair bit of interference before the first turn in the three races, otherwise it was simply India file for the rest of the journey - good racing?
Of the 19 dogs that started only 5 dogs improved their position throughout the races. 3 or 4 didn’t make the teir 3 time and a couple went on
relatively close to the track record. These were not new to the staying ranks There didn’t appear to be too many budding states as most had made an effort Successfully or otherwise over longer distance “sprints” I would be keen to hear about the 4 rising stars discovered this week

SUPER BLU 38.754 s
CABIN FEVER 38.736 s
GARDENERS BOYO 38.646 s
MIDNIGHT TITAN 38.628 s
CAVEMAN YAP 38.489 s

BLACK SPRING 38.453
DOUBLE SUPREME 38.335
BRONELLY JET 38.326

SHIMA MIST 38.249 F
BLACK CANVAS 38.248 F
SEVE ROSE 38.215 F
KEEPER OF KEYS 38.163 F
MIDNIGHT MYSTERY 37.931 F
ROCKSTAR PRINCE 37.870 F
ROCKSTAR BEAV 37.758 F
UP AND ABOUT 37.682 F

All in all an excellent nights racing.





Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1749
Dogs 0 / Races 0

10 Feb 2020 03:42


 (0)
 (0)


Hayden,

"I went along and had a look at this meeting and fwiw my take was that there were 19 dogs competing in 3 heats (not good for betting turnover) there was a fair bit of interference before the first turn in the three races, otherwise it was simply India file for the rest of the journey - good racing?
Of the 19 dogs that started only 5 dogs improved their position throughout the races. 3 or 4 didn’t make the teir 3 time and a couple went on
relatively close to the track record. These were not new to the staying ranks There didn’t appear to be too many budding states as most had made an effort Successfully or otherwise over longer distance “sprints” I would be keen to hear about the 4 rising stars discovered this week".

This is pretty right. Even though a couple ran pretty good time these are not champions in the making. Rather they are average/fair dogs which occasionally get a good run and win the odd race, often when they get the fly out of the boxes.

Otherwise, I applaud Ballarat for trying something a little different but Rome was not built in a day. It will also be difficult to get a line on them as they are hitting the bend too soon after the jump - thereby hampering the moderate beginners. And similarly at Bendigo, Warrnambool, Shepparton, Sandown and Meadows.

Additionally, at least 7 runners were backing up after 4-5-6 days, which further confuses the issues (0ne was a $2.40 fav and looked weary to me).

If we are trying to promote more and better distance racing it has to be addressed on a 5 year basis with due attention to breeding and training expertise. Quick cash on its own is not enough.




Hayden Gilders
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 783
Dogs 26 / Races 0

10 Feb 2020 04:19


 (0)
 (0)


Bruce I cant disagree with too much of this post and I even think that your time line is realistic - to think that we only have to get the ballarat boys and grv to raise their eyes and look a further 59 months down the track. currently neither want to look past the end of their nose


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1749
Dogs 0 / Races 0

11 Feb 2020 03:55


 (0)
 (0)


Hyaden,

While I am here, it is worth mentioning other odd aspects of Shepparton performances.

Normally, GRV now posts winning boxes only for the last 12 months. In the olden days you could see them for several past years but, for unknown reasons, they changed the system. Consequently, the most popular distance is not too bad but data for anything else is pretty useless. Naturally the Italian Plastic time will probably not last too long - it is one of only 71 385m races at the moment but winners are tending to come from the inside division.

Of more concern are the 450m box figures. The best two boxes are 8 (96 of 539) followed by 3 (81). The worst two are 1 (58) and 5 (57). This is highly unusual and indicates something seriously wrong with the layout.

Roughly, this disparity conforms to the track's fairly high Fall rate, although most of those occur over the shorter trip. Figures for the long trip are too small to use.

For reasonable accuracy, you need a minimum of 500 samples and preferably 1,000. (This is why you see election forecasts based on 1,000 to 2,000 samples).



Hayden Gilders
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 783
Dogs 26 / Races 0

12 Feb 2020 00:05


 (0)
 (0)


Without getting off topic - ballarat distance

if shep drop ins did what has been claimed they would there should have been a marked improvement in running to the first turn even after 71 races but this should be confirmed by a greater sample. but if its the luck of the box draw that's still in play perhaps it doesn't look good. - seems a level playing field is only for cobalt offenders

antony green doesn't call too many election results before 7 oclock but there is often a "gut feeling

earlier on this thread peter griffin raised concerns about the removal of the non slip fixed matting in front of the permanent boxes that is not in front of the drop ins, it seems that back muscle injuries could be expected to rise. - I suspect grv don't keep figures on the 300 mtr drop ins at healsville and associated issues


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1749
Dogs 0 / Races 0

12 Feb 2020 05:14


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 (0)


Hayden,

Yes, sorry - that post was meant for another thread. I transferred it there but it has not been printed.

I mentioned elsewhere an occasion when Moss Vale installed supergrass on top of the bare sand. That improved times by the order of 0.40 to 0.50 (over the 500). I suppose it also depends on how they look after the sand/loam. If it is not on the track proper it will not get beaten down much so the purchase of the paws would be problematical. They could well slip around.

Healesville I don't know about but, again, that 300m area is subject to normal track maintenance. (Note that the record speed achieved over 300m is actually much slower than the track record speed over 350m. However, this is misleading as the former was run in 2013 and latter in 2019 - apples and oranges).

See also Horsham 410m drop-in. In that case, it was done on the recommendation of UTS but the Shep case is identical. I have no idea why placing the boxes close to the rail would help - quite the reverse - but UTS found a reason. Possibly climate change?

Somebody should be able to talk about injury type and location at Horsham as there has been plenty of racing there.

In any event, I found no problem with the old Horsham 410m start, which was well away from the rail and was itself done as part of a reconstruction project. That is now money wasted, to say nothing about the extra expense of building drop-ins and buying another tractor.

Also I recall no special commentary about the slide-in 600m start at the old Geelong circuit. Obviously, that would have involved a jump straight onto the loam.

Anyway, the interesting bit is that Italian Plastic's speed rate for 385m is actually slower than the rate of the previous (390m) record - 17.96 m/s v 18.05 m/s (for Gotta Bandit in Oct 2018). It does not sound like much but the absence of supergrass could account for something.

Bulli 400m (GBOTA) also did it for a while but dumped it and returned to fixed boxes off the track a little.

The underlying reasons for all these changes are rarely stated by authorities but that's par for the course these days.

posts 36page  1 2