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Danny Harrington Ireland (Verified User) Posts 107 Dogs 0 / Races 0 09 Aug 2020 19:58
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
danny harrington wrote:
Thought this 'tread', was about----which track, provides or has provided, most 'respected', performance. But surprised---It's about 'food rating'.!!
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Beggars belief doesn't it.
Danny if you follow Aus greyhound racing I have a breakdown of sectional times that Group dogs run at The Meadows & Sandown Park in Melbourne Victoria, and Albion Park in Brisbane, Queensland.
PM me your email and I'll send you an attachment.
Danny Harrington Ireland (Verified User) Posts 107 Dogs 0 / Races 0 09 Aug 2020 20:30
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
danny harrington wrote:
Thought this 'tread', was about----which track, provides or has provided, most 'respected', performance. But surprised---It's about 'food rating'.!!
.
Beggars belief doesn't it.
Danny if you follow Aus greyhound racing I have a breakdown of sectional times that Group dogs run at The Meadows & Sandown Park in Melbourne Victoria, and Albion Park in Brisbane, Queensland.
PM me your email and I'll send you an attachment.
Thanks Ryan, Actually I was enquiring, making a judgement of overall ability of a dog, that wins, the top Group race ,at either track,or runs near t.r times,It seems, both are approx. equally respected. does similar type dogs, transfer form,easily to either track. for eg. Ireland, Shelbourne Pk,considered, or has highest profile,It's quite a'galloping' track. think this type of track can 'hide' faults, in the 'star Shelbourne dog', eg, trapping'balance',and 'get away' with less e.p,some of these dogs risk 'exposure, considered 'top drawer', Shelbourne,would struggle, and require alot of luck, to win a Classic, in the other' modern' Irish tracks.
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Bruce Teague Australia (Verified User) Posts 2092 Dogs 0 / Races 0 09 Aug 2020 22:46
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Danny,
Some might say that having two top tracks in the same city is superfluous but Melbourne has had them for donkey's years - one on each side of the city.
They are hugely different for racing purposes. Meadows is more circular, Sandown more cigar-shaped so the winning dogs are split up into those that prefer one shape over the other or those which don't care and are happy with both - ie three groups.
A wide runner is therefore disadvantaged at Meadows but does well on the longer straightaways at Sandown - eg the Whisky/Awesome Assassin types. Then there are those which are able to maintain relatively higher speed on the turns (perhaps Lansley Bale) at Meadows but do not enjoy the same edge at Sandown. And so on.
This is why winning boxes are skewed to the inside at Meadows but more evenly spread at Sandown. Winning box data may or may not be definitive in describing a track but it must always be your first stop. If the data is wobbly there will be a reason.
The next indicator is how they get into and around the first turn. Some dreamers have fiddled with that turn in an effort to smooth the way around. Fiddles do not work and actually make the situation worse. Only a completely even sweep/radius of the turn can produce optimal results. Anything more complicated can only confuse runners which are already busy watching the bunny plus their neighbours.
SO first sectional performances and overall outcomes are two different things - both vital but independent from one another. Of course, everyone wants a good beginner which is why you folk warmed to Head Honcho.
The direct answer to your question on "transfer form" is some can, some can't. It depends on the dog. First define the dog, then define the track, then define the field.
IF you are talking about outside hares, 6-dog fields or box seeding then forget all this and start afresh.
PS: Most of this data is also available on the GRV/Fastrack website although for reasons best known to the tea lady they no longer show long term winning box data - all you can get is 12 months worth, which is passable for the main trip but not for anything else.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5957 Dogs 8 / Races 0 10 Aug 2020 05:51
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danny harrington wrote:
... Actually I was enquiring, making a judgement of overall ability of a dog, that wins, the top Group race ,at either track,or runs near t.r times,It seems, both are approx. equally respected. does similar type dogs, transfer form,easily to either track....
Both are equally respected Danny by most form analysts, there are bias views depending on which side of town you live. Sandown tends to be more of a speed dogs track with backmarkers finding it more difficult to get through the field where as the Meadows to my mind is a "fairer" track in that regard. Quite a few people think the opposite, perhaps they are confusing the old Sandown track with the new one.
Generally form can be transferred from one track to the other however as always there are exceptions and some dogs favour one track over the other, the Meadows may take a little more getting used to though by some dogs too, so that has to be kept in mind.
Both are world class race tracks and symmetrical in design especially so the Meadows if the plans were examined, also both are exceptionally well prepared by both clubs. From what I'm told there's a fair bit of science that goes into that.
Danny Harrington Ireland (Verified User) Posts 107 Dogs 0 / Races 0 10 Aug 2020 12:09
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Bruce Teague wrote:
Danny,
Some might say that having two top tracks in the same city is superfluous but Melbourne has had them for donkey's years - one on each side of the city.
They are hugely different for racing purposes. Meadows is more circular, Sandown more cigar-shaped so the winning dogs are split up into those that prefer one shape over the other or those which don't care and are happy with both - ie three groups.
A wide runner is therefore disadvantaged at Meadows but does well on the longer straightaways at Sandown - eg the Whisky/Awesome Assassin types. Then there are those which are able to maintain relatively higher speed on the turns (perhaps Lansley Bale) at Meadows but do not enjoy the same edge at Sandown. And so on.
This is why winning boxes are skewed to the inside at Meadows but more evenly spread at Sandown. Winning box data may or may not be definitive in describing a track but it must always be your first stop. If the data is wobbly there will be a reason.
The next indicator is how they get into and around the first turn. Some dreamers have fiddled with that turn in an effort to smooth the way around. Fiddles do not work and actually make the situation worse. Only a completely even sweep/radius of the turn can produce optimal results. Anything more complicated can only confuse runners which are already busy watching the bunny plus their neighbours.
SO first sectional performances and overall outcomes are two different things - both vital but independent from one another. Of course, everyone wants a good beginner which is why you folk warmed to Head Honcho.
The direct answer to your question on "transfer form" is some can, some can't. It depends on the dog. First define the dog, then define the track, then define the field.
IF you are talking about outside hares, 6-dog fields or box seeding then forget all this and start afresh.
PS: Most of this data is also available on the GRV/Fastrack website although for reasons best known to the tea lady they no longer show long term winning box data - all you can get is 12 months worth, which is passable for the main trip but not for anything else.
To Bruce and Ryan, thanks, for your very thoughtful, comprehensive replies, helpul and gives insight, into comparison. As mentioned Head Honcho, and son Top Honcho, has such impact. One can reflect on, the lucky break, Irish import, coursing dog, Tivoli Dreamer, (who had a beautiful dam line, which was dual purpose,as was, nearly all ,at the time) got opportunity to mate 'handful' of broods, and arrival judicially inbred Temlee, to Head Honcho, Top Honcho, to meet up with and reignite,with obscure related families. Prior to this stage, there were USA imports,--Significant, hugely was Sandman (Aussi--Tell You Why dam, son, Flashy Sir,based in UK, limited opportunity, was a genuine gem' Aso Sail On 11 (Tell You Why, sire line.) more galloping. The pure Irish line, at this stage was very refined, athletic, 'cat like'.good animals, 'cream', evolved, on grass, very much unprepared for sand. The 'proven' sires were 'solid', with their 'returns',if you had the money, got the dog, you generally(provided brood was reasonable standard) got a good 'return', assuming, husbandry was of standard, The investment in commercial 'marketing', has 'muddied the waters',there is much confusion, as to 'merits' of many stud dogs now, so personal knowledge, is required.
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 13 Aug 2020 04:40
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Now the question is this. Is the portly partridge making pancakes, parmesan parfait or pollock pie? Shall we go and have a look then. Wise to be quiet, when the dogs are on the prowl.
I am very happy to report that Sandown has the ants pants when it comes to chips .. Today i had a 10 buck meal a large focaccia and chips with sauce and drink for 10 bucks . For 5 bucks you got dimsims chips and drink ..
No Beer seems to be the current trend i am sorry to report Mick Barry .
I am yet to travel back to the Meadows but i will let you all know how the Chips have improved maybe someone could let us know ..
9 out 10 for Sandowns Chips well done Sandown
PS Sandown also offered other hot Meal Combo's to choose from as well...
The Staff at Sandown are really nice and welcoming i was impressed by the fast and easy food service ....
Michael Barry Australia (Verified User) Posts 7402 Dogs 26 / Races 9 13 Aug 2020 09:03
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Kevin Wright wrote:
Now the question is this. Is the portly partridge making pancakes, parmesan parfait or pollock pie? Shall we go and have a look then. Wise to be quiet, when the dogs are on the prowl.
I am very happy to report that Sandown has the ants pants when it comes to chips .. Today i had a 10 buck meal a large focaccia and chips with sauce and drink for 10 bucks . For 5 bucks you got dimsims chips and drink ..
No Beer seems to be the current trend i am sorry to report Mick Barry .
I am yet to travel back to the Meadows but i will let you all know how the Chips have improved maybe someone could let us know ..
9 out 10 for Sandowns Chips well done Sandown
PS Sandown also offered other hot Meal Combo's to choose from as well...
The Staff at Sandown are really nice and welcoming i was impressed by the fast and easy food service ....
Kevin, we got a pub here with no beer , terrible times lol
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