Ive posted this a few times David, regardless of city win, as Im sure there will be more than one or two city winners in 30.80s at the city tracks recorded as a city win...some sort of ability would be preferable when breeding. I know this year it appears all from city winners, but the year or two before produced these results...

Dasha 14 starts 3-2-2 Cranb 30.87, Sandown city placed 30.06...dam of G1 Topgun winner Get It Gizmo.

Flying Liddy 53 starts 3-6-7; twice city place Wentworth Park 30.44 and 30.53 dam of multiple G1 winner Zambora Brockie.

Hail Queenie placed Wentworth Park 31.18 - dam of Black Forge

Who Told Lindylu 51 Starts. 7-5-10 PM $9878. TAB winner couldnt place in city - dam of Simon Told Helen and Who Told Stevie.

Captivating twice city placed sister to Jubilation - dam of Black Opium

Jubilation TAB winning sister to Captivating - dam of Flynn

Love To Rock 5 starts 0-0-0, but ran 30.87 at Richmond in getting beat to show she had a good motor and subsequently produced G1 dogs Matt Machine & Exs and Ohs

Foot Luce 6 starts 1-0-0 Angle Park 30.63 dam of G1 Sapphire Crown winner Oakvale Destiny and hot litter mates Oakvale Magic, Footluce Diva, Texas Titan

Limited Addition 13 starts 0-1-1. Dam of multiple Group race finalist Patch Adam Wentworth Park 29.55, Rich 30.41, 30.42; Gardens 29.43

Keiras Charm 1 TAB 6 country wins - dam of G1 Bago Bye Bye

Unquestionably 300m bitch - dam of Zoom Out

Easy Baby 300m bitch - dam of Big Flood

Father of Mine 300m TAB bitch - dam of Group winning littermates Nervous And Weird, My American Girl

Little Hammer 5 starts 1-0-1 Meadows 30.80 - dam of Slingshot Hammer

All Quality TAB winner - dam of Group finalists La Grand Quality, Caviar Quality

Flossy 9 starts 1-3-0 TAB winner - dam of Peter Galo, To The Galos

Flash Riot TAB winner failed to place in city dam of Start A Riot

Weeping Lass 300m TAB winner - dam of Crimson Vixen

Fantasy Royale city placed Wentworth Park - dam of G1 Leroy Rogue, Aphorism, Kong

Splendourous TAB winner, couldnt place in city, ticket for failing to chase - dam of multiple G1 bitch Miss Splendamiro

Fancy Jaffa 2 starts 0-0-0 Richmond 31.58, 31.83 - dam of Burn One Down, Buck Forty

Kirabilli Abbie TAB winner - dam of Lightning Frank

Aston Dream TAB winner city placed Sandown 30.49 - dam of Aston Bolero

Absolute Stunna TAB winner, couldnt place in the city - dam of Blazin Bomber, Bells Are Ringin, Ring The Bell

Zipping Rose 4 starts 0-0-3 (placed Wentworth Park 31.01) - dam of G1 PAWS winner King Cratos

Kim Zarr Dashian couldnt place in the city at Wentworth Park - dam of boom pup Jim Zarr Dashian Sandown Park 29.02 and Im Zarr Rock

Ella Lezah 14 starts 1-2-1 (Gardens 23.25) - dam of Sky Wave, Ella Enchanted, Elusive Wave, Flying Ella, Djay Holden

No I haven't delved into the matings and analysed them but even if you took SH Avatar as her best sire choice there are still 5 that didn't even make it to the track and thats the issue that is being discussed. Its hard to pin the 5 unnamed dogs on SH Avatar, you can only go back to the deficiencies in the female.

Unraced or lightly raced bitches, unless you know them intimately, like Mick knows his breed, you are playing with fire...

At the end, as you say, as a breeder you may desire to have a go because you never know which bitch in the litter will pass on the correct genes from the identical bloodlines of each sister. But Mick's example shows that he has identified the traits he wants to see in his broodbitch and mated her accordingly with great overall success.

Going back to David's article, if someone gave me a choice from two compatible matings, assuming its a first litter for each of them, one out of an unraced bitch I know nothing about and the other bitch one who won city races even in average times but chased her ring out, I know which one I would choose

As a buyer of pups or a breeder, its worth knowing why the bitch didn't have a full career, most of the bitches you mentioned in your above post didn't have many starts

Theres another interesting point re: number of starts in my examples above. Again, with many varied reasons no doubt to why they didnt have many starts. Moderately performed would be in there as one of the reasons.

Its the great dilemma of breeding. I guess reason for GWIC implementing a breeding policy which ALL broods fall under the same umbrella. In turn playing its part in reducing so called wastage. Which still should see greats like Temlee, Brother Fox, Rapid Journey etc bred from ordinary to moderately performed racebitches and enjoyed by us all.

Id be interested a little more in George Farrugias stats IF the times and form of the city winners were there to be seen. No disrespect to the owners and breeders, as getting a city winner is hard enough and should be enjoyed to the fullest, but Im sure there would be plenty of moderately performed ones winning in town in very ordinary times. Helping the stats.

The reason is that in because in 34 other pups to 3 other sires including the great Barcia Bale the brood has produced nothing that has even come within 10 lengths of those two dogs.

Without looking at pedigree specifics you would have hoped that Barcia Bale may have produced at least 1 pup from the litter that outperformed

There's no point in bringing up Temlee, Rapid Journey etc as examples, you are just picking the eyes out of the thousands of dogs that were born over those years

Georges stas are probably very pertinent and probably the reason you are currently having good success at the moment i.e. with top class broods and not ones with major flaws

Darren, we have all been there at some point, trying to create something great out of nothing, its a losing percentage game and you know it and I know it

Im not arguing too far away from you. Afterall, all my broods going forward are either city winners or of city ability. My personal criteria is of some ability. Though, Id happily breed with most of the broods I showed above...most of them had some sort of ability.

But, my main belief is matching bloodlines regardless of commercial or non-commercial. As most sires that go to stud were exceptional racers! The sires of Temlee, Rapid Journey, Brother Fox, Brett Lee etc while non-commercial were very fast and talented race dogs.

We all know you can breed a great dog from non-competitive parents with good pedigree matching, but if you start with a better class of brood with good temperament and and good racing traits, you can still pedigree match to your hearts content and improve your chances of a good result

The irony is whether it be the tail dam line or actually line-breeding / duplicating pedigree nicks etc. might well even be 100% of the time...youll find moderately performed names within a pedigree. That on an individual basis...you and many others wouldnt have bred with. But, quite happily line-breed to them. Now that ability to breed on is known.

But, many do overlook the poorly performed names in a pedigree and just accept theyre now a great gene to intensify in a pedigree in search of that champion. Temlee, Brother Fox and Princess Diro are hall of fame breed-shapers that breeders and buyers love to see working in a pedigree, who came from non-city winning dams.

When I tried to buy Nicki Fields beginning of Feb 2015 she wasnt a city winner at the time, but had shown me enough ability to want to buy her. But, it was her broodbitch potential on pedigree that excited me the most! Even then after her race career was over she was admittedly a G1 finalist, but still 29 starts 8-4-5 PM $38,450 for 2 city wins in Meadows 42.91 (rec 41.93), Sandown 42.14 (rec 41.17)...wouldnt have been many thinking she was going to be the producer shes been.

Im sure you could find plenty of non-city winning bitches placing 2nd-5th in town who would have run faster than the 2 wins of Nicki Fields. But, because they never won in town dont make the city winners stat and get cast off...

Hi Kevin ,
Some of the best broodies are unraced , The best example of a City & Group producing unraced broodie is Gogo Sutro who's produced Group dogs Esparza , Ringer , Cavendish Flyer , West On Sally ,
Olive Millie & Major League just to name a few ,
Esparza is following her mum's footsteps having produced multiple Group class & City winners most notably Blazing Cartier

Thankfully, not everyone conforms one way or the other and we get to see exceptional dogs like Amron Boy tear up the track!

So, many elite and proven crosses in Amron Boy!

We picked up as a giveaway Dragonfly Diva. With the intention of putting her to Fernando Bale. It wasnt til after that her dam Aisle Tifi clicked to Fernando, to produce a G2 Flying Amy finalist in Pazienza. With the litter having won to date $190K. But, Fernando Bale to the Tifi dam line had already clicked to produce that great Little Digger litter and being the dam sire line of Tommy Shelby and Fernando Blaster. With now Good Odds Emma showing it to be still going strong.

However, what really excited me was shes by old sire Wheres Pedro. Fernando Bale over Wheres Pedro has no peer - Wow, My Redeemer, Dyna Patty, Koblenz, Ferdinand Boy, Ice Cream Story etc etc So, hoping with the infusion of Wheres Pedro, we might see even better than what the mother has thrown to Fernando. Time will tell.

Her 3/10s of the short course record at Richmond and especially her fast 400m win in 22.61. Were nippy enough times for us to give her a go. As was her good 2nd to the very fast city dog Romantic Storm. She really stuck with Storm the whole way.

Would be interesting to hear why John Ahern wanted Miami Fernando as a brood?