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Unraced Broods V City winning Broods page  1 2 

Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 209
Dogs 2 / Races 44

14 Sep 2020 23:15


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Was her ability known Deborah?

Iíve posted this a few times David, regardless of Ďcityí win, as Iím sure there will be more than one or two city winners in 30.80ís at the city tracks recorded as a Ďcityí win...some sort of ability would be preferable when breeding. I know this year it appears all from city winners, but the year or two before produced these results...

Dasha 14 starts 3-2-2 Cranb 30.87, Sandown city placed 30.06...dam of G1 Topgun winner Get It Gizmo.

Flying Liddy 53 starts 3-6-7; twice city place Wentworth Park 30.44 and 30.53 dam of multiple G1 winner Zambora Brockie.

Hail Queenie placed Wentworth Park 31.18 - dam of Black Forge

Who Told Lindylu 51 Starts. 7-5-10 PM $9878. TAB winner couldnít place in city - dam of Simon Told Helen and Who Told Stevie.

Captivating twice city placed sister to Jubilation - dam of Black Opium

Jubilation TAB winning sister to Captivating - dam of Flynn

Love To Rock 5 starts 0-0-0, but ran 30.87 at Richmond in getting beat to show she had a good motor and subsequently produced G1 dogs Matt Machine & Exís and Ohs

Foot Luce 6 starts 1-0-0 Angle Park 30.63 dam of G1 Sapphire Crown winner Oakvale Destiny and hot litter mates Oakvale Magic, Footluce Diva, Texas Titan

Limited Addition 13 starts 0-1-1. Dam of multiple Group race finalist Patch Adam Wentworth Park 29.55, Rich 30.41, 30.42; Gardens 29.43

Keiraís Charm 1 TAB 6 country wins - dam of G1 Bago Bye Bye

Unquestionably 300m bitch - dam of Zoom Out

Easy Baby 300m bitch - dam of Big Flood

Father of Mine 300m TAB bitch - dam of Group winning littermates Nervous And Weird, My American Girl

Little Hammer 5 starts 1-0-1 Meadows 30.80 - dam of Slingshot Hammer

All Quality TAB winner - dam of Group finalists La Grand Quality, Caviar Quality

Flossy 9 starts 1-3-0 TAB winner - dam of Peter Galo, To The Galoís

Flash Riot TAB winner failed to place in city dam of Start A Riot

Weeping Lass 300m TAB winner - dam of Crimson Vixen

Fantasy Royale city placed Wentworth Park - dam of G1 Leroy Rogue, Aphorism, Kong

Splendourous TAB winner, couldnít place in city, ticket for failing to chase - dam of multiple G1 bitch Miss Splendamiro

Fancy Jaffa 2 starts 0-0-0 Richmond 31.58, 31.83 - dam of Burn One Down, Buck Forty

Kirabilli Abbie TAB winner - dam of Lightning Frank

Aston Dream TAB winner city placed Sandown 30.49 - dam of Aston Bolero

Absolute Stunna TAB winner, couldnít place in the city - dam of Blaziní Bomber, Bells Are Ringiní, Ring The Bell

Zipping Rose 4 starts 0-0-3 (placed Wentworth Park 31.01) - dam of G1 PAWS winner King Cratos

Kim Zarr Dashian couldnít place in the city at Wentworth Park - dam of boom pup Jim Zarr Dashian Sandown Park 29.02 and Iím Zarr Rock

Ella Lezah 14 starts 1-2-1 (Gardens 23.25) - dam of Sky Wave, Ella Enchanted, Elusive Wave, Flying Ella, Djay Holden




Raymond Peter Fewings
Australia
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Posts 158
Dogs 0 / Races 0

14 Sep 2020 23:20


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George Farrugia's stats are convincing. Even better if bitch could win 600m. and daughter of superior brood bitch. Some lines go for many generations. If you are lucky ànd young enough to recognise this you have it made. Too late for me.



Deborah May
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 141
Dogs 4 / Races 0

14 Sep 2020 23:20


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Sorry, donít know anything about Stresa.


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 18270
Dogs 14486 / Races 1814

15 Sep 2020 01:20


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Darren Leeson wrote:

But Sandro, youíre also not acknowledging were they good sire choices away from the SH Avatar litter? And did that factor play a part in the wastage.

There are so many variables in this game that play their part in Ďwastageí. You canít make such a generalised statement. As we all know champion faultless bitches never produce even a single quality race dog as well.

Itís certainly a debate worth having, but itís a fine balance, because how many champions and breed shapers were from moderate to very average racers...Temlee, Waverley Supreme, Princess Diro (and Glen Aussie), Brother Fox, Acacia Park, Rapid Journey etc none of which were from quality racers...

No I haven't delved into the matings and analysed them but even if you took SH Avatar as her best sire choice there are still 5 that didn't even make it to the track and thats the issue that is being discussed. Its hard to pin the 5 unnamed dogs on SH Avatar, you can only go back to the deficiencies in the female.

Unraced or lightly raced bitches, unless you know them intimately, like Mick knows his breed, you are playing with fire...

At the end, as you say, as a breeder you may desire to have a go because you never know which bitch in the litter will pass on the correct genes from the identical bloodlines of each sister. But Mick's example shows that he has identified the traits he wants to see in his broodbitch and mated her accordingly with great overall success.

Going back to David's article, if someone gave me a choice from two compatible matings, assuming its a first litter for each of them, one out of an unraced bitch I know nothing about and the other bitch one who won city races even in average times but chased her ring out, I know which one I would choose

As a buyer of pups or a breeder, its worth knowing why the bitch didn't have a full career, most of the bitches you mentioned in your above post didn't have many starts


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 209
Dogs 2 / Races 44

15 Sep 2020 02:58


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But, even then to give SH Avatar credit for the 2 good dogs and the dam responsibility for the 5 unnamed is flawed as well. But, as you and Mick say...youíre all about putting the % in your favour! Canít argue with that!

Thereís another interesting point re: number of starts in my examples above. Again, with many varied reasons no doubt to why they didnít have many starts. Moderately performed would be in there as one of the reasons.

Itís the great dilemma of breeding. I guess reason for GWIC implementing a breeding policy which ALL broods fall under the same umbrella. In turn playing itís part in reducing so called wastage. Which still should see greats like Temlee, Brother Fox, Rapid Journey etc bred from ordinary to moderately performed racebitches and enjoyed by us all.

Iíd be interested a little more in George Farrugiaís stats IF the times and form of the city winners were there to be seen. No disrespect to the owners and breeders, as getting a city winner is hard enough and should be enjoyed to the fullest, but Iím sure there would be plenty of moderately performed ones winning in town in very ordinary times. Helping the stats.




Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 18270
Dogs 14486 / Races 1814

15 Sep 2020 03:42


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Giving SH Avatar credit for the 2 top dogs is not flawed.

The reason is that in because in 34 other pups to 3 other sires including the great Barcia Bale the brood has produced nothing that has even come within 10 lengths of those two dogs.

Without looking at pedigree specifics you would have hoped that Barcia Bale may have produced at least 1 pup from the litter that outperformed

There's no point in bringing up Temlee, Rapid Journey etc as examples, you are just picking the eyes out of the thousands of dogs that were born over those years

Georges stas are probably very pertinent and probably the reason you are currently having good success at the moment i.e. with top class broods and not ones with major flaws

Darren, we have all been there at some point, trying to create something great out of nothing, its a losing percentage game and you know it and I know it


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 209
Dogs 2 / Races 44

15 Sep 2020 03:57


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Temlee and Rapid Journey are exactly the reason many people get involved in the sport in the first place and as a breeder we all dream of breeding something like them. My own experience was the likes of Turbo Top, Brother Fox and National Lass...started my being bitten by the bug to then at the age of 18 buying my first greyhound pup and subsequently becoming a breeder.

Iím not arguing too far away from you. Afterall, all my broods going forward are either city winners or of city ability. My personal criteria is of some ability. Though, Iíd happily breed with most of the broods I showed above...most of them had some sort of ability.

But, my main belief is matching bloodlines regardless of commercial or non-commercial. As most sires that go to stud were exceptional racers! The sires of Temlee, Rapid Journey, Brother Fox, Brett Lee etc while non-commercial were very fast and talented race dogs.


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 18270
Dogs 14486 / Races 1814

15 Sep 2020 04:02


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It was a different world back then and cheaper to breed and regulation wasn't a factor

We all know you can breed a great dog from non-competitive parents with good pedigree matching, but if you start with a better class of brood with good temperament and and good racing traits, you can still pedigree match to your hearts content and improve your chances of a good result


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 209
Dogs 2 / Races 44

15 Sep 2020 04:11


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That part I completely agree with. Iím just not getting stuck in the necessity of a city winner stat...as we would never have seen a number of greats and breed shapers to this day. If we all did the ďcityĒ winner route.

The irony is whether it be the tail dam line or actually line-breeding / duplicating pedigree nicks etc. might well even be 100% of the time...youíll find moderately performed names within a pedigree. That on an individual basis...you and many others wouldnít have bred with. But, quite happily line-breed to them. Now that ability to breed on is known.


Paul Dicks
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 8839
Dogs 110 / Races 252

15 Sep 2020 10:42


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I know I bang on about this but look at the top 100 dogs in Australia ATM. 75%+ are from City Class Quality bitches. I understand Darren's list of poorly performed bitches who produced quality pups iz interesting, but the exception rather than the rule.


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 209
Dogs 2 / Races 44

15 Sep 2020 10:57


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Iím more showing alternative pathways. I fully accept most people wont see my side, because the safest bet is to play the %. But, thankfully some people do look outside the square and we all benefit from it e.g greats like Temlee, Brother Fox, Rapid Journey, Brett Lee (Wee Sal)...all 4 coming from non-city winning dams and have enriched our greyhound enjoyment over the years immensely! With 3/4 hall of fame breed-shapers!


Paul Dicks
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 8839
Dogs 110 / Races 252

15 Sep 2020 11:04


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Wasn't Sobbing Sal city class?


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 209
Dogs 2 / Races 44

15 Sep 2020 11:05


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I edited my post...I was thinking 2nd dam Wee Sal, couldnít win in town.


Paul Dicks
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 8839
Dogs 110 / Races 252

15 Sep 2020 11:09


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I admire your tenacity in defending unraced and poorly performed brood bitches. But look at your own best results, all your tpp quality pups (from my memory) have come from classy race bitches.


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 209
Dogs 2 / Races 44

15 Sep 2020 11:21


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Iím not so much defending them, rather showing they can and do produce great dogs. But, even in my list of non-city winning broods, I do acknowledge a certain level of ability. As Iíve mentioned in this topic, I want that certain level of ability.

But, many do overlook the poorly performed names in a pedigree and just accept theyíre now a great gene to intensify in a pedigree in search of that champion. Temlee, Brother Fox and Princess Diro are hall of fame breed-shapers that breeders and buyers love to see working in a pedigree, who came from non-city winning dams.

When I tried to buy ĎNicki Fieldsíí beginning of Feb 2015 she wasnít a city winner at the time, but had shown me enough ability to want to buy her. But, it was her broodbitch potential on pedigree that excited me the most! Even then after her race career was over she was admittedly a G1 finalist, but still 29 starts 8-4-5 PM $38,450 for 2 city wins in Meadows 42.91 (rec 41.93), Sandown 42.14 (rec 41.17)...wouldnít have been many thinking she was going to be the producer sheís been.

Iím sure you could find plenty of non-city winning bitches placing 2nd-5th in town who would have run faster than the 2 wins of Nicki Fields. But, because they never won in town donít make the city winners stat and get cast off...



Branko Lezaja
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 461
Dogs 2 / Races 0

16 Sep 2020 02:52


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Kevin Wright wrote:

Can anyone name any UNRACED Greyhounds who produced
Group winners..

or
Champion..
Sire's and Broods ...

Hi Kevin ,
Some of the best broodies are unraced , The best example of a City & Group producing unraced broodie is Gogo Sutro who's produced Group dogs Esparza , Ringer , Cavendish Flyer , West On Sally ,
Olive Millie & Major League just to name a few ,
Esparza is following her mum's footsteps having produced multiple Group class & City winners most notably Blazing Cartier


Kayla-Jane Coleman
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 18
Dogs 7 / Races 0

16 Sep 2020 05:39


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Paris St Germain - Group winners St Pierre and Nitro Nori. And off memory produced a group runner every litter.

posts 37page  1 2