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I wouldn't consider any of the ones you've mentioned other than KC and All (in light of his remarkable success to date) for your formats there. Unless you want stayers---then Octane might fit the bill.
Vincent J Lund United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 600 Dogs 23 / Races 0 26 Apr 2015 09:07
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Dennis McKeon wrote:
I wouldn't consider any of the ones you've mentioned other than KC and All (in light of his remarkable success to date) for your formats there. Unless you want stayers---then Octane might fit the bill.
I could be wrong John but I am sure read it on here. Some one from the USA posted on an Australians thread. That DK'S Prime Time would be worth using if available. Cannot remember the context and I cannot find the thread. Perhaps some one will remind us ?
Craig, of that group, KC and All is a standout--actually, he's a standout in any group. He's throwing early pace, and consistently. It was Martin Roper and Brian Witt who pointed out to eveyone just how remarkable this dog's performance as a sire has been to this point. As I recall, it is unprecedented in our history. From here, it appears that he is just about as good an example of a dog who has international prospects as we can present.
Most have already heard that DJays Octane is the dog of the moment for Southland, and he has been quite effective at producing dogs who are suited to what is a one-off course in the US, and is a deep, cuppy racing surface that artifically fatigues and thus penalizes early pace. I'm not certain that racing at Southland is precisely analoguous to racing at any of your major tracks, which seem to have very fast surfaces. Maybe that doesn't matter, though.
The others have all had their successes as sires, and Craigie Whistler in particular, has thrown greyhounds who were better track dogs than he, and who has thrown some pace, and done well with Irish bloodlines.
DKs Prime Time was undervalued here, as he provides and interesting sibling cross of his damsire, Right Connection to He's My Man, when put to Dodgem By Design daughters (and vice versa). Amazingly, this cross does not seem to have been tried much, but when it was, it seems to have worked very nicely. CLICK HERE
To expand a bit on KC and All...his 3x3 inbreeding to Dutch Bahama would seem to be custom tailored to Australia. Note Dutch Bahama's 2nd dam, Dutch Discreet.. CLICK HERE Add to that Bahama's damsire, Rocker Mac (a 7-time US sire leader), and a topline to Tell You Why.
KC and All meanwhile, descends in tail female from Royal Princess, historically our greatest sire producing family in the US.
John Marriott United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 581 Dogs 24 / Races 4 26 Apr 2015 13:57
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Dennis McKeon wrote:
Craig, of that group, KC and All is a standout--actually, he's a standout in any group. He's throwing early pace, and consistently. It was Martin Roper and Brian Witt who pointed out to eveyone just how remarkable this dog's performance as a sire has been to this point. As I recall, it is unprecedented in our history. From here, it appears that he is just about as good an example of a dog who has international prospects as we can present.
Most have already heard that DJays Octane is the dog of the moment for Southland, and he has been quite effective at producing dogs who are suited to what is a one-off course in the US, and is a deep, cuppy racing surface that artifically fatigues and thus penalizes early pace. I'm not certain that racing at Southland is precisely analoguous to racing at any of your major tracks, which seem to have very fast surfaces. Maybe that doesn't matter, though.
The others have all had their successes as sires, and Craigie Whistler in particular, has thrown greyhounds who were better track dogs than he, and who has thrown some pace, and done well with Irish bloodlines.
DKs Prime Time was undervalued here, as he provides and interesting sibling cross of his damsire, Right Connection to He's My Man, when put to Dodgem By Design daughters (and vice versa). Amazingly, this cross does not seem to have been tried much, but when it was, it seems to have worked very nicely. CLICK HERE
Thanks for that Dennis,
as for Southland, this fella CLICK HERE raced exclusively at Southland and has been a big success over here producing pacey but strong runners, hence why I asked about DJays Octane.
Good point, John. The difference being, of course, that Hondo Black was a high pace type himself... whereas Octane also seems to throw dogs who were like he was, more like pace stalkers who are strong finishers.
Martin Roper USA (Team Member) Posts 1593 Dogs 7212 / Races 10370 26 Apr 2015 16:49
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It's amazing that Hondo Black was successful at all at Southland, a track for which he was ill suited. Notice the comments in his second-place finishes; "Set Pace To Stretch," "Nosed Out At Wire," "Led Till Late," "Led, Caught Str," etc. He would've had much better results had he raced at Wheeling or even Derby Lane.
Michael de Ward Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2191 Dogs 4 / Races 1 26 Apr 2015 19:12
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Martin,how would you rate SH Avatar's chances at stud
Martin Roper USA (Team Member) Posts 1593 Dogs 7212 / Races 10370 26 Apr 2015 19:31
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Our breeding numbers are so low these days he'll never get a chance to be a Molotov or Gable Dodge. He was a fine racer and is beautifully bred.
His sire's numbers are eye-popping. We haven't seen anything like it since Molotov's first pups broke in.
Michael de Ward Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2191 Dogs 4 / Races 1 26 Apr 2015 20:01
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Martin,would there be a better bred dog than SH Avater at stud there currently Surely he's bred to throw champions with him outa K.M.M./F.P. and his damline is top drawer with Molotov there also.. There are straws over here now...
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 26 Apr 2015 20:52
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michael de ward wrote:
Martin,would there be a better bred dog than SH Avater at stud there currently Surely he's bred to throw champions with him outa K.M.M./F.P. and his damline is top drawer with Molotov there also.. There are straws over here now...
Mick are you aware that SH Avatar and Paddy Whacker have litter sisters as there DAMs .
Paddy's Sire line is well and truly proven in England and Ireland .
Take a close look at Paddy Whackers Bloodline on the top and the bottom ..
Brian Witt USA (Verified User) Posts 12 Dogs 86 / Races 23 27 May 2015 18:23
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michael de ward wrote:
Martin,would there be a better bred dog than SH Avater at stud there currently Surely he's bred to throw champions with him outa K.M.M./F.P. and his damline is top drawer with Molotov there also.. There are straws over here now...
If pedigree had much relevance in whether or not a dog produced would have far more top producers. I'll always throw pedigree ans race career out the window and wait to see results before making any assumptions about the value of a stud. Over here in the United States we had a magazine called The Greyhound Review, published by the National Greyhound Association. It is in this magazine that our top studs and stud prospects are advertised. There was a time when everyone was hoping their exceptionally well bred Molotov sons could be the heir to the throne, production wise. At one point I counted about 35 Molotov sons advertised. Some never got a chance at pups but in all a total of over 50 Molotov sons had pups. Each stud prospect was bred to with an eye on their pedigree and the hope that they would produce well. In general they were a colossal failure. Craigie Whistler was nice but certainly not phenomenal like Molotov. Dk's Prime Time ended up being a nice dam sire, but his stud fee is $375. Nobody lines up to breed to either. My point is simply that although SH Avatar is brilliantly bred, a studs chances for mediocrity far outweigh his chances to be special. US sires like KC And All and Kiowa Mon Manny have produced phenomenally. I think KC And All should do very well over there. If speed tracks with harder surfaces over here paid well then it would be he who was the number one stud over here rather than Djays Octane who produced talent suited for out Southland track. No dog in the US in the last 20 years, possibly ever, has had early progeny statistics that are even in the neighborhood of those of KC And All. His progeny here don't dominate our top paying track because they aren't as strong as Octane pups, but the early speed he passed along led to his offspring being dominant in stakes racing over here throughout the rest of the country. His production is a statistical outlier that no stud, regardless of how well bred, will be likely to duplicate simply because the success of his offspring is unlike other recent studs. I wouldn't hesitate to breed to Avatar though. He will be limited over here due to his pedigree having so many ancestors already commonly present in our broods, but that won't be a concern over there. KC And All would be a better bet if he fits Australian bloodlines as well as he has fit ours.
Brian Witt USA (Verified User) Posts 12 Dogs 86 / Races 23 27 May 2015 19:26
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I don't think my opinion is above anyone else's but US sires is something I've studied extensively, with a statistical emphasis. I don't share my thoughts too much on it, and never on this forum but I happened to run across this forum and saw Dennis mentioned mine and Martin's thoughts on KC And All so I figured I would add some scattered thoughts. I tend to type as I think so it is what it is, and generally not a well organized point. :-)
There are far better statistics to back KC And All's production than what I'll mention here, but they'd be too complicated to explain quickly enough that anyone would read. I will make comparison's to Djays Octane and Kiowa Mon Manny, not to make them look poor, but because they are two remarkable producers. Octane is our top stud here due to skills in his offspring that make them successful at out top paying track, which I'm not sure is relevant over there but as Dennis says it may not matter either, he could still be wildly successful over there. Kiowa Mon Manny I mention because the top 10% of his offspring in wins won an average of 28 of their races, something I've not seen from another stud I've looked at (most range from 16 to 20, with a few in the low to mid 20's. That puts emphasis on each racers more elite runners rather than their average litter, but as a breeder that star is what I look for to make my profit.
Speaking of taking the top 10% of a studs offspring, ranked by number of wins, that group of pups from Djays Octane has won 18.0% of their total races. For Kiowa Mon Manny pups in that group, they won 18.1% of their total races. For KC And All pups in that group they won 24.9% of their races. A case could be made that these aren't Octanes best pups because they run Southland where wins are tougher). Still impressive.
Here is one I like. In late 2014 I looked at points leaders here on Greyhound-Data, which I'll mention since this is the g-data forum. I wanted all things equal so I looked only at pups born in 2012 that could be running in 2014.
In 2012 KC And All had 131 pups that could have been running in 2014. 9 in the top 30.
In 2012 BD's Grayson had 789 pups that could have run in 2014. 3 in the top 30.
In 2012 Kiowa Sweet Trey had 946 pups that could have run in 2014. 1 in the top 30.
In 2012 Kiowa Mon Manny had 739 pups that could have run in 2014. 1 in the top 30.
In 2012 Lonesome Cry had 601 pups that could have run in 2014. 1 in the top 30.
In 2012 Djays Octane had 522 pups that could have run in 2014. 1 in the top 30.
9 pups in the top 30 compared to most studs with just one, and in so many fewer racers. That was stakes racing domination in 2014 by KC And All offspring.
What impressed me more in 2014 was a stat that compares points per runner on greyhound-data as a percentage in comparison to the points of the stud with the most offspring, often a number one sire. If 200% that means their offspring had twice the points per pup. 300% would be triple. KC And All had over 200 pups running and still had a statistic of 608%, six times that of the stud with the most offspring running in 2014.
Here is about 18 years worth of that stat, comparing studs with the highest number, many of which didn't have the 200 pups running that KC And All had.
Here are some for the US, for all a studs offspring combined, from all years, with the first number being their ranking on the list(over the past 20 years or so only):
#1 KC And All 247%
#3 Kelsos Fusileer 173% (I included him since those in Australia will be familiar with Fernando Bale)
#4 Djays Octane 166%
#20 Kiowa Mon Manny 126%
These are all in comparison to US Stud Kiowa Sweet Trey who had the largest volume of runners, and was thus set at 100% for comparison purposes. Kiowa Sweet Trey was a top stud here and was bred to for over 10,000 offspring. There are about 50 US studs ahead of him in that statistic and KC And All is on top.
There are many stats that can make one stud or another look better, but I try to look at them all and am impressed with KC And All, and think his pups are far more suited to making money outside the USA where earlier speed on firmer surfaces would be more valued than here, if he crosses well with your countries bloodlines.
Michael de Ward Ireland (Verified User) Posts 2191 Dogs 4 / Races 1 27 May 2015 19:32
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Thanks Brian,would it be accurate that Molotov was more of a brood producing stud-dog?? What would your opinion be on Superior Product @ stud? (ie;early pace or stamina??) Also what do you think SH Avatar might throw on earlies r stamina??
Dennis McKeon (Verified User) Posts 355 Dogs 0 / Races 0 27 May 2015 20:17
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Molotov was THE brood producing sire. A lot of his son's problems had to do with the fact that Molotov's daughters' offspring were, as a group, significantly outperforming other sires'daughters, and Molotov sons could not access them. Also, Gable Dodge daughters got off to a miserable start, and they were the natural crossing lines for many of Molotov's sons when they were in their moment.
Dennis McKeon (Verified User) Posts 355 Dogs 0 / Races 0 27 May 2015 21:10
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Michael...interesting question about Avatar. While he is bred to throw both strong and pacey types, his close relative, Paddy Whacker, seems to be throwing a bit more pace than one might have expected---at least more than I expected.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
