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Johnathon Campbell Australia (Verified User) Posts 4635 Dogs 5 / Races 2 23 May 2017 11:00
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For the purpose of this thread I'll divide dogs into three classes. Lower class, middle class and upper class. Something I've noticed is people having real problems selling there pups that are middle class and below. Upper class pups are getting really hard to buy and upper class race bitchs are near impossible to buy for breeding purposes. I've mentioned before I know people breeding more pups now then they ever had before but that's for there surplus and the only pups they are selling is to owners attached to there kennel. I also know two guys that buy top race bitches and even they said it's near impossible to buy one off the track now BUT in saying that they are selling pups at 8k a pop with no problems at all be it from superb bitchs. It seems the gap is widening but maybe that's through my eyes but it seems if you breed now be prepared to keep the litter or if you have a top bitch would you even sell a pup knowing the numbers are dropping.
Truck Mcnamara Australia (Verified User) Posts 563 Dogs 3 / Races 0 23 May 2017 17:42
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if you price the middle class+below right they should sell i reckon johnathon but some people think there worth more then they are+thats why they don't sell imo. i seen some for $750 that i think are a bargain that should sell quick because there priced well but then you will see the same class of pup at $3000. i'd rather buy 3 at 750+you still got 750 left to put into rearing them+3 times the chance of getting a good one.
Darren Langley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3160 Dogs 12 / Races 0 24 May 2017 08:05
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Why would you want to sell pups from an upper class bitch. With the prize money on offer you would be mad. I know our last litter we could have got $10k for these pups we have half and the owners got half. A top trainer in Sydney said I would have rocks in my head to sell any of them he said there worth a lot more than $10k. Still no certainty these pups will be any good. But happy to take a chance.
As for middle and lower class yes they will be hard to sell as a lot of people are sitting on the fence. I also believe there are a lot of over priced pups advertised hence them not moving from GData.
You will always sell your pups maybe not at the price you think they are worth.
Michael Barry Australia (Verified User) Posts 7402 Dogs 26 / Races 9 24 May 2017 08:56
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its good to hear, there is still people around who are prepared to pay 10 gran for a pup ,
i thought those days were all gone ,
Darren Langley Australia (Verified User) Posts 3160 Dogs 12 / Races 0 24 May 2017 09:29
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michael barry wrote:
its good to hear, there is still people around who are prepared to pay 10 gran for a pup ,
i thought those days were all gone ,
Micheal you try and buy pups from a bitch who has thrown group runners for under $10k you will be hard pressed.
Michael Barry Australia (Verified User) Posts 7402 Dogs 26 / Races 9 24 May 2017 22:17
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Darren Langley wrote:
michael barry wrote:
its good to hear, there is still people around who are prepared to pay 10 gran for a pup ,
i thought those days were all gone ,
Micheal you try and buy pups from a bitch who has thrown group runners for under $10k you will be hard pressed.
its good to know them buyers are still out there ,,i havent been a buyer now for a number of years, so mayb out of touch a little
hopefully theres buyers for the less expensive ones as well , ill have a few to sell in coming weeks ,but not for 10 gran , if someone has 10 gran they can have four lol
Andrew Varasdi Australia (Verified User) Posts 1287 Dogs 2 / Races 11 24 May 2017 23:02
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the big players and buyers are still there. No questions. In fact many see more opportunity than ever with reduced numbers, to stay involved and get a return.
But from what I am seeing the price of pups is being driven by the bitch not by the stud dog. Some people used to tell me that there was a rule that the price of the pups should be the equal at least of the dogs service fee.
That no longer applies. What matters is that the bitch is a producer.
Yesterday I heard of 5 pups being bought for in excess of $12,000 by one owner. But the mother has produced multiple group winners from her first litter.
The issue is 100% at the bottom to lower middle end. Pups from bitches who were average performers, from average families and maybe have thrown average pups from first litter will struggle to sell.
And compounding the problem is the severe loss of what I will call hobby owners who used to enter the market at this end looking to have some fun. These people have been burnt the whole way through the process including by rearers and the PTB and with them going so has demand at that end.
Blokes getting together at the pub, a few mates, that sort of thing.
The people who are the big players have no interest in those pups.
IMO it is absolutely critical that as a start point the rules change immediately from a rearing and breeding perspective to encourage people back into owning and breeding. It is critical to the future of the industry at every level.
Ricky Leonard Australia (Verified User) Posts 22 Dogs 0 / Races 0 24 May 2017 23:55
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The answer to this from my perspective is simple- what do owners do with dogs once they finish racing if they don't have breeding opportunities? I understand that GAP and these places are doing amazing jobs but the hypothetical is that a trainer calls you one day and says "this dog is no good, I want him gone"- what is the owner to do with it if they don't have the facilities to have them as pets? Its just too hard. Personally I would have 20 dogs right now and would love to invest more money into the industry but I just simply don't have the means to re-home multiple dogs when they finish their careers. The solution is far from simple and i don't know what it is but it very sad when I hear people with lots of money that are quite interested in the industry starting to participate in other racing codes because the post racing complexities in our industry is so hard
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 24 May 2017 23:59
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andrew varasdi wrote:
the big players and buyers are still there. No questions. In fact many see more opportunity than ever with reduced numbers, to stay involved and get a return.
But from what I am seeing the price of pups is being driven by the bitch not by the stud dog. Some people used to tell me that there was a rule that the price of the pups should be the equal at least of the dogs service fee.
That no longer applies. What matters is that the bitch is a producer.
Yesterday I heard of 5 pups being bought for in excess of $12,000 by one owner. But the mother has produced multiple group winners from her first litter.
The issue is 100% at the bottom to lower middle end. Pups from bitches who were average performers, from average families and maybe have thrown average pups from first litter will struggle to sell.
And compounding the problem is the severe loss of what I will call hobby owners who used to enter the market at this end looking to have some fun. These people have been burnt the whole way through the process including by rearers and the PTB and with them going so has demand at that end.
Blokes getting together at the pub, a few mates, that sort of thing.
The people who are the big players have no interest in those pups.
IMO it is absolutely critical that as a start point the rules change immediately from a rearing and breeding perspective to encourage people back into owning and breeding. It is critical to the future of the industry at every level.
Andrew
You could not have put that any better
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 25 May 2017 00:00
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Ricky Leonard wrote:
The answer to this from my perspective is simple- what do owners do with dogs once they finish racing if they don't have breeding opportunities? I understand that GAP and these places are doing amazing jobs but the hypothetical is that a trainer calls you one day and says "this dog is no good, I want him gone"- what is the owner to do with it if they don't have the facilities to have them as pets? Its just too hard. Personally I would have 20 dogs right now and would love to invest more money into the industry but I just simply don't have the means to re-home multiple dogs when they finish their careers. The solution is far from simple and i don't know what it is but it very sad when I hear people with lots of money that are quite interested in the industry starting to participate in other racing codes because the post racing complexities in our industry is so hard
That is why the PTB want to reduce the number of greyhounds bred
To soften the impact of greyhounds being PTS and not rehomed.
Live Baiting was always the catalyst to the real issue of rehoming and wastage.
That is also why PTB will be directing copious amounts of money for rehoming arrangements
The question is, can the industry afford it?
Michael Geraghty Australia (Verified User) Posts 4138 Dogs 14 / Races 15 25 May 2017 02:38
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Ricky Leonard wrote:
The answer to this from my perspective is simple- what do owners do with dogs once they finish racing if they don't have breeding opportunities? I understand that GAP and these places are doing amazing jobs but the hypothetical is that a trainer calls you one day and says "this dog is no good, I want him gone"- what is the owner to do with it if they don't have the facilities to have them as pets? Its just too hard. Personally I would have 20 dogs right now and would love to invest more money into the industry but I just simply don't have the means to re-home multiple dogs when they finish their careers. The solution is far from simple and i don't know what it is but it very sad when I hear people with lots of money that are quite interested in the industry starting to participate in other racing codes because the post racing complexities in our industry is so hard
Ricky, It's not hard if you forward plan .I understand that GAPs in each state are different but you will find they are more than happy for you to book your dog in advance. I have a dog here right now that hasn't raced, bit iffy, and will soon know if it has a racing future. The owner has just booked the dog into GAP for intake in July. If it improves they will just postpone the booking and forward it on to the next intake date. You can do that with a number of dogs so when the time comes to retire, a spot is never far away. Not always ideal, but there is a workable situation and it's the plan I work with. Never had a problem.
There's a way around most things. Go and buy yourself 50 dogs and have a ball. :)
Michael Geraghty Australia (Verified User) Posts 4138 Dogs 14 / Races 15 25 May 2017 02:51
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
Ricky Leonard wrote:
The answer to this from my perspective is simple- what do owners do with dogs once they finish racing if they don't have breeding opportunities? I understand that GAP and these places are doing amazing jobs but the hypothetical is that a trainer calls you one day and says "this dog is no good, I want him gone"- what is the owner to do with it if they don't have the facilities to have them as pets? Its just too hard. Personally I would have 20 dogs right now and would love to invest more money into the industry but I just simply don't have the means to re-home multiple dogs when they finish their careers. The solution is far from simple and i don't know what it is but it very sad when I hear people with lots of money that are quite interested in the industry starting to participate in other racing codes because the post racing complexities in our industry is so hard
That is why the PTB want to reduce the number of greyhounds bred
To soften the impact of greyhounds being PTS and not rehomed.
Live Baiting was always the catalyst to the real issue of rehoming and wastage.
That is also why PTB will be directing copious amounts of money for rehoming arrangements
The question is, can the industry afford it?
"The question is, can the industry afford it?" If I'm reading the future correctly, the answer to that question, Sandro, especially in NSW is YES, it can. Breeding is down 60%. NSW has an agreement of 13% of turnover for more than 90 years. ATM, they race 7 days a week. Simple maths, in the near future, it has to reduce to 3 days a week. GRNSW pay out 60% LESS prize money, but at the same time receives the locked in 13%, NO increase in prize monies. Then of course the selling of assets(tracks) no longer in use. Similar situations could unfold in other states.
Can they afford it? Enough and more to pay for the extra welfare, integrity, and probably a little left over to help the horseys if they need to put on another group race. Conspiracy theory...?
Nice.
P.S. With the BLESSING of some industry reps?
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 25 May 2017 03:24
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We are contracted for 99 years with the NSW TAB to out on 594 meetings per year, which, say at 10 races per meeting is 5940 races which then requires the presence of at least 8 dogs per race or 47520 greyhounds
On average, lets say a dog races 20 times per annum, that means we need at least 2,376 dogs in the racing pool at any one time over the year
If that represents 80% of dogs born which is the naming % criteria with 20% being lost along the way to accident, illness etc then we need at least 3000 pups born per annum
At an average of 6 pups per litter that's 500 litters per annum
In 2015 in NSW 1232 litters were whelped in NSW
Therefore, based on my rough calculations we need 40% of the 2015 number of litters bred in NSW just to satisfy our own TAB Racing pool
That's notwithstanding the many dogs that are sent interstate from NSW and to NZ over a period of time
I can't see Non-TAB racing in NSW surviving if breeding doesn't pick up soon.
Therefore, if NSW cut down to 500 litters per annum and as it used to produce 40% of litters Australia wide then the other states will be suffering from lack of greyhounds as well if they don't ramp up their breeding programs
Enterprising people will recognize the shortage and start breeding for the racing market.
Realistically, better prices should be obtained for the moderately bred stock going forward as well as the sky rocketing prices for pups from proven Group/city producers
Hayden Gilders Australia (Verified User) Posts 993 Dogs 29 / Races 0 25 May 2017 03:30
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andrew varasdi wrote:
The issue is 100% at the bottom to lower middle end. Pups from bitches who were average performers, from average families and maybe have thrown average pups from first litter will struggle to sell.
And compounding the problem is the severe loss of what I will call hobby owners who used to enter the market at this end looking to have some fun. These people have been burnt the whole way through the process including by rearers and the PTB and with them going so has demand at that end.
Blokes getting together at the pub, a few mates, that sort of thing.
The people who are the big players have no interest in those pups.
IMO it is absolutely critical that as a start point the rules change immediately from a rearing and breeding perspective to encourage people back into owning and breeding. It is critical to the future of the industry at every level.
If there is no market for them it wont be too long before the supply ceases and the current breeding rules have merely accelerated this process. The conviction of the big player with the 12k pups will ultimately be tested when there are no average or lower end dogs for them to beat and the 12k pup replaces them at the tail of the field
Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 25 May 2017 04:33
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
that represents 80% of dogs born which is the naming % criteria with 20% being lost along the way to accident, illness etc
Hi Sandro. My stat's which go for decades suggest 1/3 of pups whelped do not get named on average.
Sandro Bechini wrote:
In 2015 in NSW 1232 litters were whelped in NSW
Those figures you've quoted from the Grey/Aus site are wrong.
To prove I'm right, the annual total of litters rego for that year = 3,143. This was the same year when the sh1t hit the fan & breeding HALVED from July onwards. If those figures are correct, the year before (2014) should show a considerably higher annual total, but it doesn't (3109). In fact the 2015 figures "Shown on that site" state it was the best year for breeding a greyhounds, in the past 5 years.......That's BOLONEY. We've all been given a bum steer.
The 2015 annual figures in NSW should read 942, not 1,232.
The 2016 annual figures in NSW are 496.
The whole outlook on the industry is on the verge of claiming scalps. Their own.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 25 May 2017 06:31
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steven martin wrote:
Sandro Bechini wrote:
that represents 80% of dogs born which is the naming % criteria with 20% being lost along the way to accident, illness etc
Hi Sandro. My stat's which go for decades suggest 1/3 of pups whelped do not get named on average.
Sandro Bechini wrote:
In 2015 in NSW 1232 litters were whelped in NSW
Those figures you've quoted from the Grey/Aus site are wrong.
To prove I'm right, the annual total of litters rego for that year = 3,143. This was the same year when the sh1t hit the fan & breeding HALVED from July onwards. If those figures are correct, the year before (2014) should show a considerably higher annual total, but it doesn't (3109). In fact the 2015 figures "Shown on that site" state it was the best year for breeding a greyhounds, in the past 5 years.......That's BOLONEY. We've all been given a bum steer.
The 2015 annual figures in NSW should read 942, not 1,232.
The 2016 annual figures in NSW are 496.
The whole outlook on the industry is on the verge of claiming scalps. Their own.
I am just using their figures.
I can't verify if they are right or wrong, but I doubt they could be out by 290 litters for NSW for 2015.
It seems fairly consistent over previous 8 years except for 2011 & 2012 where there was a lull
In 2015 there was a lot of breeding going on with the escalation of prizemoney, I remember on GD there were over 150 litters for sale at one point in time
Now we struggle to get to 50 and quite a few of them are dogs already broken in, not actual litter of pups.
Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 25 May 2017 08:48
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
I can't verify if they are right or wrong, but I doubt they could be out by 290 litters for NSW for 2015.
Sandro....I'm not pulling your leg. Do the maths yourself on the official NSW site. ---> EXTERNAL LINK
Sandro Bechini wrote:
In 2015 there was a lot of breeding going on with the escalation of prizemoney, I remember on GD there were over 150 litters for sale at one point in time
176 to be precise. Then by Sept it had fallen to 78 as stated in my first sentence here ---> CLICK HERE I'm telling you, don't believe those figures you've quote mate. How they could get them so wrong when they're suppose to be the official keepers of our industry can only be taken as deliberate (curveball). Don't be fooled.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 25 May 2017 09:27
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Could also be a time lag because when you look at the GRNSW statistics they give you litters whelped
GA gives you litters registered. Most litters aren't registered till somewhere between 10-16 weeks after whelping and some many months later
Ricky Leonard Australia (Verified User) Posts 22 Dogs 0 / Races 0 25 May 2017 09:57
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Forward planning would be an amazing thing if all dogs careers ended because you could see they were "iffy" and you are the one that calls time. Unfortunately careers don't always finish as planned and you don't have time to watch it play out. On top of that GAP don't accept every dog that goes for intake which leaves you a bigger problem if they fail. There are quite a few hurdles in re-homing dogs that can go against an owner and when you live on a domestic houseblock, it's hard to take up the slack when trainers want to stop feeding your injured or slow dog to make room for the next pup coming through
Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 25 May 2017 10:40
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
Could also be a time lag because when you look at the GRNSW statistics they give you litters whelped
GA gives you litters registered. Most litters aren't registered till somewhere between 10-16 weeks after whelping and some many months later
Couldn't be a time lag as the figures I've stated are 2015.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
