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Do you have questions about breeding theories?
Or do you need tips on how to rear your pups?

Maybe 500m dog's are becoming a thing of the past page  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 

Michael Geraghty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3358
Dogs 13 / Races 15

08 Jan 2018 04:04


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:(


Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1872
Dogs 6 / Races 0

08 Jan 2018 04:26


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Two burning questions I have for Mike of NZ are:
how long have you been a keyboard warrior supporter or follower; and
how long have you been sitting on the fence watching us ?

I find it very difficult to believe everything you have written, after you enlighten me that your dogs went into large paddocks to chase, yet Ďseldom saw and caughtí ..... something. It doesnít matter any way and I donít want you incriminating yourself either. All the best.




Kevin Wright
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4639
Dogs 1 / Races 1

08 Jan 2018 04:41


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Mark Donohue wrote:

Two burning questions I have for Mike of NZ are:
how long have you been a keyboard warrior supporter or follower; and
how long have you been sitting on the fence watching us ?

I find it very difficult to believe everything you have written, after you enlighten me that your dogs went into large paddocks to chase ..... something. It doesnít matter any way and I donít want you incriminating yourself either. All the best.


Mark I do believe Micky Kiwi is trying to say that he has never believed greyhounds needed to chase live game and he has done it his way .....

I do believe there has been many who have done it this way and regardless what we think i don't feel he is not being a Keyboard warrior and his contribution is welcomed as far as i am concerned ...

No need to poke the Bear as it only gets posts removed and the thread dies a slow death ...

Maybe when i travel over your way to the long white Cloud ..Micky Kiwi you can cook me a nice curried possum pie ....mmmmm . mmmm . I can taste that bone marrow now as i suck on those little morsels of possum gristle and bone ...and maybe i will buy myself a Possum hat with Wild Feral Cat Teeth

PS
relevance. Yes i agree ...

Bruse i feel is relevant MickY Kiwi .
Bruce is getting the hang of Social Media and for a simple Columnist I like Bruce for being educational and engaging his audience
For a Old Dude Bruce you handle Social Media with ease these days .....Cheers




Mark Donohue
Australia
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Posts 1872
Dogs 6 / Races 0

08 Jan 2018 04:52


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Absolutely his opinion is welcomed. I just donít believe all of what he has written. Dogs do rolls n jump through hoops for rewards.



Kevin Wright
Australia
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Posts 4639
Dogs 1 / Races 1

08 Jan 2018 05:00


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Mark Donohue wrote:

Absolutely his opinion is welcomed. I just donít believe all of what he has written. Dogs do rolls n jump through hoops for rewards.


Sometimes Mark as you know when you write the words down they just don't seem to have the same results when on paper so reading between the lines i believe Micky Kiwi is genuine ...End of story maybe hey Mate ....Cheers Mark


Mark Donohue
Australia
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Posts 1872
Dogs 6 / Races 0

08 Jan 2018 06:20


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Thatís your opinion and I donít agree with you. Thatís clear enough hey ?
End of story
Cheers, Mark


Michael Peter Martin
New Zealand
(Verified User)
Posts 16
Dogs 0 / Races 0

08 Jan 2018 07:20


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My mentor in the early days long retired now stressed to me "never use anything in training that you cant do on raceday". Still good advice.

Mikey G . you must have heard about the time our great Kiwi export Willy Mason was chosen to represent the Bulldogs in a charity Quiz.

The big prize of the night was $10,000 and after a blind draw the bulldogs were the team with a chance to win the $10,000.

Willy stepped up a bit nervous but realised even though he was a NZ'R the Aussie battlers in the audience would be right behind him.
The questions were a gimmee and all willy had to do was answer one question which was who is the prime minister of England. He smiled widely and to everyone's surprise answered Princess Di. The judges looked at each other in disbelief and shook their heads and started out "sorry Willy... but were drowned out by the fair minded Aussie audience who chanted giveemanothergo, giveemanother go. The judges laughed and agreed and after wondering what next, said well Willy could you tell us what 10 and 10 make. Willy was elated and howled out 20. the aussie crowd immediately started chanting giveemnanother go giveeemanother go.



Michael Geraghty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3358
Dogs 13 / Races 15

08 Jan 2018 07:27


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Michael Peter Martin wrote:

My mentor in the early days long retired now stressed to me "never use anything in training that you cant do on raceday". Still good advice.

Mikey G . you must have heard about the time our great Kiwi export Willy Mason was chosen to represent the Bulldogs in a charity Quiz.

The big prize of the night was $10,000 and after a blind draw the bulldogs were the team with a chance to win the $10,000.

Willy stepped up a bit nervous but realised even though he was a NZ'R the Aussie battlers in the audience would be right behind him.
The questions were a gimmee and all willy had to do was answer one question which was who is the prime minister of England. He smiled widely and to everyone's surprise answered Princess Di. The judges looked at each other in disbelief and shook their heads and started out "sorry Willy... but were drowned out by the fair minded Aussie audience who chanted giveemanothergo, giveemanother go. The judges laughed and agreed and after wondering what next, said well Willy could you tell us what 10 and 10 make. Willy was elated and howled out 20. the aussie crowd immediately started chanting giveemnanother go giveeemanother go.

Lol. I'll pay that one.
Never give up the passion, Michael and never give up the fight for a fair go...no more, no less.


Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1872
Dogs 6 / Races 0

08 Jan 2018 08:24


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Michael M,
Iíll give you another go ! lol Nah, good onya mate.

35 years in the industry. I take my hat off to you. All the best.


Michael Peter Martin
New Zealand
(Verified User)
Posts 16
Dogs 0 / Races 0

08 Jan 2018 20:53


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Mark Donohue wrote:

Absolutely his opinion is welcomed. I just donít believe all of what he has written. Dogs do rolls n jump through hoops for rewards.

Good point that Mark and it was the point my mentor made. He pointed out that animal behaviour is hugely affected by reward and pain or punishment and they learn better by reward. He pointed out that you cannot pull a chocolate bar or icecream out of your pocket and give it to them when they win so the reward you are left with is making a big fuss over them when they do win. How many times do you see the handler walking back after a race with their chest puffed up like they have just run the race themselves never giving the dog a second glance?

As for the hunting thing, the dogs love to go "hunting " in big open area's that have been frequented by rabbit's and the like, they get really keen although they hardly ever see one.
Two instances however that my head tells me I shouldn't post. Firstly I was emptying out some dogs in an acre paddock on daybreak one day when a demented rabbit decided it wanted to use the same paddock to cross to a neighbours. First I knew was while I was bending down with the shit shovel was a thunder of paws flying past and I looked up to see about 7 dogs hot on the trail of a rabbit, the fence was not far in front of the rabbit and the front dog was the best of our lot who eventually went on to equal the most consecutive wins by a greyhound in NZ. I could see what was going to happen and was helpless to stop it. The rabbit went through the 8 wire fence and the Dog hit the concrete post of the fence. His injuries were sever but as I stated he went on to win many races (58).
Many years later (3 weeks ago) I was in the same paddock with 5 dogs including the one from 10 years previous when I had my back to the dogs (brandishing the shit shovel again) and I heard a commotion looked up and the five of them had a rabbit that had not been in the paddock 5 minutes earlier. Realising how this was going to be hard to explain if a neighbour or visitor happened to look over I yelled at the dogs and ran over to try and retrieve what was left of the rabbit. They all backed off bar the veteran who had the first encounter many years before. I can take anything off any of our dogs so put my hand in his mouth and he let go but before he did he gave one final bite which just happened to be on my fingernail. Weeks later my nail is still black and looking likely to depart but the moral of the story is the dogs and I do not go harassing rabbits the bastards are harassing us.


Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1872
Dogs 6 / Races 0

09 Jan 2018 03:21


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Wow ! Those wicked wabbits. An introduced specie that has caused a lot of damage to the land. Thatís Ďsightí working at its best, but for Ďtunnel visioní.


Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1872
Dogs 6 / Races 0

09 Jan 2018 09:00


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You gotta like the races at Wenty Park on Saturday Night. The first two are Ďcrackersí over 720m.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 278
Dogs 0 / Races 0

12 Jan 2018 05:55


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Daryl,
Let's go back to scratch. I have done some comparisons between 2007 and 2017 for the month of December for Vic racing (anywhere else is too hard to work out due to the horrible availability of data in Ozchase).

In a bit over a decade the proportion of races of 480m or less has increased from 54.2% to 63.5%. Obviously, races of 500m-plus have dropped from 45.9% to 36.4%.

The most extreme changes have been at either end of the scale. Races below 410m have almost doubled from 15.1% to 29.2% while those of 650m or more fell from 5.1% to 2.8% of the total.

Even around the 500m mark, where all the big dough sits, the proportion fell from 33.7% to 27.7%.

This check involved around 1,000 samples at either end so the conclusions are fairly reliable - although figures might vary a little in a bigger study.

It is inescapable that the breed is not as strong as it was. Trainers have spoken.



Daryl Barrett
Australia
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Posts 446
Dogs 0 / Races 0

12 Jan 2018 09:20


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G'day Bruce,thank's for getting this back on topic,those figure's give the idication that 500m dog's are becoming a "thing of the past",even given that there was a 1000,i dare say that if that figure was 10.000,the pecentage would definitely be a lot higher,but the worrying thing here is,that i think that it is a lot worse here in NSW,like i said earlier,this situation has been manifesting for year's now,well before the banning of anything organic being used on the arm,i am starting to wonder if it is the trainer's who "train" greyhounds to race over 500 & further who are becoming a "thing of the past",in saying that,i know from experience that a sqib is a squib,& no matter how they are trained they wont run a yard past 300-400m,but given that ,i find it very hard to believe that 60% or more of current dogs which are racing,are that weak that they cant get at least 500.Maybe the increased p/m for these events over the years has had an effect on the saturation of 300-400m racing ???,you wouldn't be a bookie for quid's either at the moment given that more times than not the favourites win these races,because of their good box manners,early speed & at least 3-4 dogs being checked out of the race within the first 30mtrs (400m bend starts),WOW,how exciting is that!! F @#* me,this must be the future of greyhound racing,if it is,then it has lost me.


Bill Warner
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 288
Dogs 19 / Races 379

12 Jan 2018 09:21


 (1)
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Maybe many trainers these days lack the ability or desire to condition a dog to run 500m and beyond.


Daryl Barrett
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 446
Dogs 0 / Races 0

12 Jan 2018 09:35


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Bill,that's what i'm beginning to think as well to be honest,we all know how easy it is "train" 300-400m dog's,but it isn't that much harder to train 500-700m dogs if you know how.



Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 6030
Dogs 166 / Races 66

12 Jan 2018 11:36


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Nice work Bruce.

With the main distances at Warragul (450m), Warrnambool (460m), Shepparton (450m), Geelong (460m), Bendigo (425m), Ballarat (450m), which are all "One Turn speed Tracks" I'd expected your results to show nothing more than a favoritism to a collection of races below the starting point of 480m (you've used) & less...But where IS a fair starting point (distance) when those tracks I've mentioned are all designed around those preferred distances above?

Back in the day, it was common knowledge that most dogs that could run out a strong 530m at Wpk, could not run out a solid 457m at Hpk due to the big sweeping corner (I'm sure your aware of this)....which most Victorian tracks I've mentioned (which I love may I add) are very much similar in shape.

For example,
THE RINGER won 21 CITY x 457m races (a record) at Hpk & zero at Wpk.
TURBO TOP won 25 CITY x 530m races (a record) at Wpk & zero at Hpk.

Horses for courses.

In summary, & well done Bruce for the time & effort in this study....& in your words -

Races around the 500m mark = 27.7%
Races of 480m or less = 63.5%
The most extreme changes races below 410m = 29.2%

So if I subtract
29.2% from 63.5% = 34.3% wins below the 500m mark but higher than 409m (the preferred race distances on those tracks mentioned).
So you could make an argument that this 34.3% of winners below the 500m mark but higher than 409m, could be added to the "Races around the 500m mark = 27.7%", which = 62% of races won are over the most preferred race distances.

62% I think is a very acceptable result. That's 2 out of every 3 win races between 410m & around 500m (your words).

To go one more step, your "most extreme changes races below 410m" should be adjusted to 411m to include all races over the Horsham 410m (which would slightly lower that 62% figure I've calculated).

And just one last one... to be fair, all races from "Healesville" should be excluded from the study due to the fact they don't have any distances further than 350m (which would increase that 62% figure I've calculated).




Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 6030
Dogs 166 / Races 66

12 Jan 2018 11:59


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Bare in mind Bruce, all those Victorian track distances I've mentioned...None are dreaded corner starts.
If your study was based in Queensland (Ipswich 435m) totally different story.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 278
Dogs 0 / Races 0

12 Jan 2018 22:41


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Steven,

Sorry to confuse. I excluded Healesville from all figures simply because I do not keep a great deal of info on it and it had a lower profile in 2007. Had I put them in the comparisons would be even more odious, especially with the doubling of frequency recently. I don't deny its importance for a variety of reasons. Also, 350m at Healesville is much more demanding than most of the sub-411m races.
You could also say that 480m at Horsham is more demanding than any of the 500m/535m category but they often fail to warn the dogs about that. The long home straight is telling.

And the 410m figures do include Horsham 410m. I should have looked up the equal to or less sign.

Anyway, the basic message is clear - plus or minus a bit from time to time. It's the COLES effect - down down down.

On HP v WP - an awkward comparison. Yes, some could get found out in the last 20m at HP. But you would have to consider which dogs are competing in each case. In that era you often had dogs coming to HP from the Hunter which were deliberately bred to handle the big wide-open tracks. For example, most Maitland/Cessnock winners did not do nearly as well at the trickier Newcastle (Beaumont Park) track due to their galloping style. So too, HP v WP. Also I once ran a big survey of Maitland v WP starters. The Maitland dogs weighed 2kg heavier on average.

Another point is that many good performers at WP (and at the old Gosford track) were dainty bitches which could nick out well, rail well and hold on - eg Pom Pom Girl, Genesis etc. Conversely, wide runners were at a disadvantage, which mattered little at HP.

The thing is that if you change some ingredients in the recipe you get a different sort of cake. Closing HP had a catastrophic effect on NSW racing and the Hunter in particular because the big dogs lost their mecca. While it would have happened eventually, the closure was at the time (1987) purely for financial reasons on the part of GBOTA. They won, the industry lost.

That was never relevant in Victoria but it was in Queensland when Parklands closed and NSW GRA emasculated Border Park. SA has finally understood the need - hence the up coming one-turner at Murray Bridge. WA has a kind of either/or track at Mandurah.

Anyway, all this stuff is predictable if authorities and others watch the trends. Sadly, their thinking and their actions are limited to the next 12 months - as evidenced by their current reactions to breeding problems, a long term matter if anything is.

The nature and nurture argument - breeding and training - is beyond me but perhaps a bit of each is involved.




Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 278
Dogs 0 / Races 0

12 Jan 2018 22:55


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Daryl,
Thanks - but one matter warrants comment. Yes, other things being equal, I would be a bookie. There are three prime indicators: favourites are overbet, meaning the odds are in favour of the bookie before you start, second the quality of the average field is declining as more slow dogs are added to the mixture, meaning the running and the outcome are less predictable, and third all fixed odds price lists are ripoffs, usually around the 130% mark.

My casual observation is that most trainers are far more concerned about the amount they are able to bet rather than the price they are taking. Very dangerous.

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