Back then, Greyhounds that could only run 275m were retired before they even stepped on the race track because these dogs were regarded as "Hopeless", & nobody wanted them as we all strive for TAB / City winners.

Nothing has changed except for the number of litters bred. It's that simple.

Just check out the Sires at that meeting in question, Cannington.

Jaris bale, Bekim Bale, Destini Fireball, Collion, Spring gun, Cosmic Rumble, Cosmic Chief, Barcia Bale, Velocette, Talyors Sky, Magic Sprite,, El Grand Senor, Fabregas, Mogambo, Kiowa Producer, Big Daddy Cool, Kinloch Brae, Banjo Boy, Collide, Late Show Lee, Oaks Road, Lochinvar Marlow, Disintergrate, Cape Hawk, Sure As, Shakey Jakey, On Coin, Glen Gallon, Kiowa Mon Manny, Bobby Boucheau, High Earner, Kc And All.

We all know it takes "2 to tango" but once again, take a look at the sires used above. What more can be done?

The dogs LEFT at this meeting are the ones that we all called "HOPELESS"...3 years.

Since breeding has been reduced by 61% over the last 30 months, these greyhounds are all that's left to fulfill fields...or meetings will simply close.

Basically, these greyhounds can now obtain a race start on a weekly basis where before they were overlooked or unwanted due to the preferred abundance of 500m dogs.

Once again it's proof the boffins (who know everything) got it wrong & we who have decades of experience in the sport know nothing.

Breeding needs to be increased in a hurry from 7500 pups (as it stands now) to a minimum of 10,000 (the average was 18,000) and race distances over 500m may flourish again...slightly.

I have to ask, "What boffins?". No doubt there are some potential boffins around but the decisions are being made by people who have little or no knowledge of the breeding game or of the strategic needs of the industry.

The current situation is a result of a stream of reviews and reports by lawyers and public servants. Without exception, these reports have been adopted slavishly by politicians and state racing chiefs, who not only have little technical knowledge but who also failed to check any of the reasoning or the data behind it.

OK, live baiting was the trigger yet in all cases those horrible abuses were handled and processed by the usual officials in the usual manner - the contribution of the reviewers varied from negligible to zero. Worse, in fact, because they made serious errors and put people on the wrong track.

Taken as a whole, racing horses and dogs is not a profitable activity for owners. Activity depends on the confidence of people who want to get a bit of their money back and have some fun on the way. That confidence is now missing.

Yet the current monthly report from the GRV CEO contains not a word about the chronic downturn in breeding or the long stream of empty boxes and reduced race numbers. Even allowing for current weather influences, this attitude is verging on suicidal.

The question of sufficient 500m/700m dogs cannot just be put down to the total available numbers. It is just not logical - there should be better outcomes than we are getting. In the past several months, how many promising stayers have emerged? Zero in Qld, NSW, SA and Tassie, a couple of yet-to-be-proven types in WA and one in Victoria. The rest are plodders or rubbish.

That situation is underlined by the continuing increase in the proportion of short races - as the Cannington example illustrates.

No mate, the quality has gone. Whether that is due to breeding or training or some combination of both is uncertain but the evidence on the racetrack is undeniable.

All these miserable events add up to an industry structure and management process that cannot cope with today, let alone plan for the future. The above subjects are just the tip of the iceberg. The only real solution is to chuck it all out and start again, using 21st century commercial standards.

Was it Einstein who first said if something is not working don't keep trying it in the hope that it will suddenly succeed?

Incidentally, I should not digress but the current disruptions in the online betting sector (William Hill, Bet365 et al) will not help to recover lost ground. In any event, they were doing no more than pinching business from the competition, not generating new customers.

bd's grayson x bella izzy bear may 2013

1. fiesta hatty races 285 284 over 499 mts
2 fiesta halo races 162. 162 over 499 mts
3 fiesta hannah races 15. 15 over 499 mts
4 fiesta helper races 82 82 over 499 mts
5 fiesta hobbs races 127 127 over 499 mts
6 fiesta hopeful races 208 208 over 499 mts

in the USA they took on board the best way to get good strong stock that could race every 5 or 6 days,i could put up thousands of litters on these lines, stamina and endurance, plus the ability to prepare the running surface to the highest of standards, giving the greyhounds a longer racing life.

breeders can breed what they like,it is their money,their choice.

the words of wisdom given to me by the man who bred a bitch to win the derby at white city London many years ago still hold true today,
1 never use stud dog that could not run a strong 550 yards
2 never use stud dog that was a plodder over extended distances
3 brood bitch should be pacey and have abilty to stay 600 to 700 yards, also she should come from a very good female line,

he was a very shrewd man indeed,a very high percentage of greyhounds racing today, trace back to his brilliant litter that included a super bitch named WINNIE OF BERROW the rest as they say is history ,check it out for yourself.

mandurah tuesday feb 6th 12 races .11 over 405 mts
2 races over 490 cancelled due to, insufficient noms
i rest my case

The momentum in the breeding v training stakes appears to be moving in favour of breeding being the problem.

Roger's quoted point about sires being able to run a strong 500 seems very reasonable. But then his oracle does not mention if the combination of a suitable sire with a suitable dam could overcome the stamina problem.

Newcomer Rippin Sam, for example, is a genuine staying type - looks like he could go 800. Now his sire (Fernando Bale) does not really conform to that "STRONG 500" requirement. Great dog but he was finished at the end of a 500. It seems Tears Siam provided the strength?

But here's a contrast. Fernando Bale won good 500s because he would lead long into the back straight. On the other hand, Rippin Sam is a moderate beginner, meaning he does not overtax the system in the early part of the race and has plenty left for the later portions (see also Sweet It Is).

My attempt to better understand the staying caper is not getting very far. I know intimately what they do on the track but how they get there in the first place is still a mystery.

To one degree or another the pattern also applies to successful 500m dogs. We know what PAW does but otherwise a lot of guesswork is involved.

This is vital stuff because more successful outcomes are necessary to overcome the current weaknesses - ie (1)fewer dogs can run 700m well and (2) the weakening pattern is a major worry for the breed as a whole, including for the blue ribbon 500m events. Both trends are relevant to the current increasing proportion of 400m races/dogs.

Reliable answers (not just opinions) are needed so as to tell us what to demand from state authorities. The industry's future depends on it.

As the late Bill Pearson said, "They are not as robust as they used to be".

But why?

this produced a litter that included westmead sula

westmead sula then mated to coolvanney bert .a dog best over about 450 mts maybe less

two litters and 18 pups to race from this repeat mating

623 races later. this is the result

nearly all were best at very short racing,up to 460 mts
only 4 dogs winning over 480
only 1 dog winning over 515 mts

i hope you can see where this is ending up
it only takes the input of ballymac maeve and coolvanney bert to take out 45 years of strong produce to end up with nothing but 440 mt dogs,
the produce from westmead sula won many races between them ,giving the owners a lot of fun,but never going to win a tv trophy in a million years.
if all that stamina that was in the female line can be wiped out so quick, do not underestimate the input of the traits passed on by the stud dog ,
i had a few stud dogs many years ago ,including a group 1 winner
also a dog that had many offspring that could run 900 easily
three in one litter, two ran top grade at wimbledon the other
dead centre group 2

i must stress that these stayers also won races over 300 to 500 at 16 months of age,this being a good education,i schooled nearly all of them myself,
i hope this sheds a bit of light onto the subject
i also note that many pups on the market over the last few years put up for sale are from 300 and 400 mt bitches, in australia,
the stamina that a dog has is determined before the pup is born
it goes without saying that good rearing is essential
one other thing i have noticed is how few pups make it to the track in australia compared to the USA

You have provided a terrific example of one particular breed, using UK dogs. The answer is do not breed with bitches that are competent only up to 450m.

I can't speak for other countries but in Australia the average dog reaches its top speed over about 435m. Obviously there will be variations above and below that mark.

So how do you put together a long string of such examples in order to reach a reliable conclusion about the overall trend? One case is interesting but cannot be used to set policy for a nation.

That leads to my original point that the industry needs a small independent panel to watch over these things and report (as you and others have done) on trends and outcomes with some authority.

The situation is now chronic and is not being addressed by state authorities in any meaningful way.

Here is a current piece of evidence. Over the past several months it is rare to find a 700m dog that has run quicker than 15 lengths outside the track record in NSW, Victoria and SA where most of the distance racing occurs. (I leave out WA for the moment as it is early days on the new Cannington track). A very few runs have got within 10 lengths of the record mark but those are not repeated.

All that includes the so-called champion, Fanta Bale. It has many very good qualities but hot times are not amongst them.

Supposedly softer tracks may have influenced those times a little but not sufficiently to change the basic conclusion.

Tonight, all will be watching Rippin Sam with great interest. But that will still not answer the question. One or two dogs do not make a breed.

When overseeing staying greyhounds one must consider the capability of the trainer to prepare stayers and how and where the Greyhound was reared.

I refer you to , Big Daddy Dee, Midnight Treat, Ebby Ripper they have been racing over staying distances month in and month out for 12 months - Good Rearing and Good Training perhaps?

Big Daddy Dee and Ebby Ripper in multiple states as well

You have been conned. As in Oz, the NZ review was conducted by a lawyer (supposedly with help from stewards). Its major aim was to reduce euthanasia - therefore cut down the number of racing dogs and you will achieve that aim. Hence the import restriction.

Those interventions were all based on a lack of appreciation of how the industry can or should operate - ie as a commercial enterprise with due regard to community standards. To a man, they said fix the overbreeding problem and all will be well.

Yet there was no overbreeding; they never bothered to properly investigate and analyse how the industry worked. The problem was always how to handle surplus dogs, including the rate of euthanasia. Reducing total numbers was never going to fix that problem, except for a tiny few at the margin.

Since then, there have been strenuous efforts to address that subject, noting at the same time that euthanasia is a perfectly legal action and is practiced in the thousands by other authorities such as the RSPCA, local Councils as well as in horses and puppy farms.

The Australian consequence is that we now have chronic underbreeding and a severe shortage of racers to fill the available boxes. Potentially, this will get worse before it gets better. Meantime, risks to industry income will hamper efforts to (a) further improve welfare and re-homing and (b) discourage future involvement of both trainers and owners.

Bizarre indeed.

Paradoxically, a major reason for past Oz>NZ dog movements has been attempts (usually successful) to place offending dogs in a more attractive environment. Reducing those opportunities will force more euthanasia etc in Australia.

The lesson is that by all means have independent reviews of the industry but never give that job to lawyers or public servants. Never.

I don't follow. The dogs you mention have all been racing very moderately for a long time. They are not backable.

Incidentally, my promotion of Rippin Sam bit the dust last night when it ran 20 lengths outside the record (corrected for the handicaps) while getting beaten - admittedly with some interference along the way. The winner did slightly better while the others were hopeless.

I can't comment on trainers - only on what their dogs do.

i notice that Cannington on feb 7th they can only put on a 10 race meeting.

4 over the 520
6 over the short's
2 over 520 cancelled due to insufficient noms

blind freddy can see the situation is nearly at crisis point

also 8 vacant boxes

how long before only a 8 race meeting can be put on.
as i said before the 70 mt dash races will soon become reality
you think i am joking,i do not think so
other reasons we have a shortage of hounds available to race need to be examined very closely.
i notice a lot of dogs no longer being nominated over the last few months at this track,so i thought i would do a little research.

i have only gone back to 5th Dec 2017

5th DEC. ZAR PHOENIX . RACE 11 serious injury , dead
20th Dec FADED race 9 serious injury, dead
27th Dec PETES EAGLE race 6 serious injury, stood down
90 days
27th Dec AYE VEE BEE race 10 serious injury,
stood down 90 days
27 th DEC MUDZY race 12 fractured toe
GO GETTUM BECKs race12 fractured toe

8th Jan YA GET THAT race 9 fractured foreleg dead
10th jan Camelia moneli race 5 fractured tarsal
stood down 90 days
28th Jan SASSY GINGER race4 fractured carpal
28th Jan HONKY CAT race 11 fractured hock
31st Jan BIONIC BLACK CAT. race 4 f.n.s fractured leg,

a very serious pattern would appear to be putting a reason as to shortage of hounds available to race on the new Cannington track
is this also a problem in the rest of australia or just a local issue, i do not know the answer to this, perhaps someone out there can put a bit more light on the matter in hand.

Bruce I agree with what you are saying but my comment was not about the restrictions being wrong. To say that chronic underbreeding and a severe shortage of racers is the current sate in Aus seems to be a dichotomy when you cant get racing dogs to NZ quick enough.

Seven races with only seven dogs in each.
NOT GOOD!

City class racing ain't City class racing anymore Steve, thanks to the dogooders & their "WE'RE NEVER WRONG" attitude.

You may as well move "City Racing" to Richmond where less traveling is involved to encourage better quality greyhounds from country areas, such as Bathurst etc.

A 3-hour trip ONE WAY would be reduced to 2, & I'm sure participants from within those areas would re-think their nomination choices should talk of such a move eventuate.

Desperate times call for desperate measure & it's going to get worse...FAR WORSE before it gets any better.

Whoa back! The previous WPK meeting had reserves for all but one race and only one of them was used anyway. Sure there is an overall problem, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

First define the problem. If trainers do not want to try for 3k or 5k prizes then find out exactly why. There was a time when they would crawl over broken glass just to get a draw.

Second, Richmond is a frying pan and fire exercise. Like Wenty, the
track layout is substandard (400m and 535m). That'll draw some fire but I am talking about facts, not opinions.

Third, I assume you are joking about Bathurst, which does not have a lot of 500s and has a lousy first turn anyway.

Fourth, if you want to shut down Wenty, plan it all long ahead of time, including consideration of contractual obligations and the need to finance a multi million dollar investment from an organisation that may well go broke.

Fifth, 3 hours one way?????????????? On Saturday afternoons? Hmmm.

Sixth, you advocate making things easier for trainers. Well, that's nice but what about the public? I realise there are not many of them but whose fault is that and why not do something about it?

Seventh, at the moment the big problem is that the business of racing is under severe stress. In part that has led to less enthusiasm for breeding and buying pups. So first work out ways of improving the business as a whole. Hint - get rid of the unproductive management-by-committee system which has been failing for 50 years. Neater processes will not do it - seeking better outcomes will.

Note - I and many others hate Wenty but that's not the most urgent issue. Making a quid is.

I identified the problem over 2 years ago.

Lack of breeding = lack of quality. It's an easy equation.