There is only and always will be one Brett Lee

To be clear , Ive never said he was will be or even in the same league

Different sires different eras

Pretty sure the king was around when full litters didnt count for squat!
So if anything Sh , who in this day and age is being marked at a harder and more prudent time period which would clearly have the king covered in this department!

Which statistically why in 3 different continents his %s are so good

He in my opinion isnt what I call a strike thrower ( meaning 6 duds in a litter and 1 grp winner )

He throws volume and consistency
Like his other counter parts

Kinloch Brae
Bella infrared

Kc and all is more your strike thrower out of the 3 in my opinion

Im clearly just pointing out sh avatars attributes and strengths for Poeple who are interested in using him , thus helping out whether he suits your broods qualities!

They might not be stars like Brett lees

But you wont have to have 5 goes to get 5 pups to the track either

He produces what I believe is what your brood was or her predecessors qualities were with a lovely calm attitude over all , but dont be fooled
Given the right education and time they are animals ! On the squeakers

If you like the sound of these qualities and think thats what you value or are looking for in a pup then dont hesitate to try him

If you like a more high voltage pup , or your brood needs this , then hes not the sire for you !
Very simple !

Good luck all and enjoy

Ps well said Geoff

Deserves to be at top of page

Only sad my little mighty fella didnt get a mention haha
No hard feelings Geoff

Whats your point Matt ?

So its ok for Fernando to be credited for everything but what , does sh have to serve maiden only produces to get acknowledgement ???

She produced 1 city winner wow what a free leg up for Sh ???

If you cant see cratos could possibly be a cut above from his 2 starts only (everyone else can see it ) and who knows , maybe hes the Avatar that corrects your original train of thought and opens other potential breeders eyes !

They notice its an avatar coz its his turn to see if his wave of offspring are as good as Poeple hope !

Every early sire gets this publicity or focus
If anything the supplier of Sh Avatar straws is rarely on here , its not as if he is on here plugging it everyday ??

Apologies Poeple for updating and informing of possible interesting runners
App Sh Avatar has an unfair edge of publicity and gets too many city producing broods !

I hope u go and correct and pick apart the other 5 sires on the front page at the moment or any other week

You're taking things the wrong way. I'm not out to pick on sh avatar and at no point did anyone say he's had a unfair advantage by getting too many quality broodies. And you're right Fernando bale does get too much credit for the quality he's produced(but that's a different argument). Let it be known I actually backed your dog at bulli on Saturday night.

Bella Infrared Top Offspring CLICK HERE

It's in the blood ...Kiowa Mon Manny is by far the cheapest Proven imported sire available .to breeders in Australia ...

Konomi has the bloodline to really pop with Aussie bitches and he should be available to breeders shortly ....Southland Dogs are by far the best dogs racing in the USA ..

Some of the new IMPORTS SIRES here now in Australia are not the best dogs from the USA in fact they are Grade 1 country class at best ..IMO

If you go back to . Oshkosh Racey the sire of Penckse CLICK HERE
You will find he carries a 4x4 of Tell you why .Here is his secound top offspring CLICK HERE
All sires in this line have common proven crosses .....

Nathan i was one of the first people to praise SH Avatar and i tried like hell to get him but missed out and we got Kiowa Mon Manny instead .

SH Avatars damline is one of the best and i have Paddy Whacker whos dam is a litter sister to SH Avatars Dam
You will find Avatar Broods will be like gold in years to come ...

Like the top offspring that everyone watches at meadows and wenty cleaning up is a simple fact of 1000 offspring on the ground and supreme broods

So when I hear a sire lacks that anything special ......?

When minimal offspring numbers are involved ,sometimes you have to dig a little deeper then flicking on the tv for an hour

Youd be surprised how much info is out there that doesnt see the light of day until its regarded as hindsight

Thats all Im dribbling about

Well done Matt $$$ touchwood , stay with him

Ps never intended to brag ??? More inform and help with a tiny bit of evidence behind it to support the theory that I raised ,thats all Matt , like u say on another thread ,
Im also pretty proud of my fella , not sure if Im more excited about the day I get to bring him inside to watch tv with me some days when all is said and done or race him ???? Haha
And I enjoy what I do so never short on words or convo

If your ever at the track come over and say gday and meet king , hell blow you away

Ps cheers Kev for that info , always up for a nice broody or even in the making of a good broody !

It will be another interesting topic Im sure in years to come
Good chase , nice size and a great temperament
Hope your right

I am getting terrific feedback on the temperament from the same dam line as a few of my broods, so I am getting excited to use him. I am getting told they are extremely relaxed pups in their kennels and that they are easy to educate and fire up when they need to. This feedback is exactly what I am looking in for a sire for my broodies line.
This is something that also has interested me on a pedigree perspective - CLICK HERE

I hope any info thats been supplied recently helped or consolidated any already thoughts or desires you had !

Wow Id like you or any specialist in pedigree to elaborate more on your pedigree perspective example

At a glance it looks like your outlining the common or possible niches with Sh that are similar to sires such as bartrim barcia and bekim bale !

Through bobniak and Lansley bale ?

Very interesting bud if I have this right

Cheeers again and great feedback ,please elaborate more if you can

I think his dogs rated over 100 is very low for uk/Ire and aus. USA doesn't have ratings. Half a page of dogs rated over 100. His high % of major races comes from mostly USA runners. I'm not sure the quality is the same as Uk/Ire and aus dogs.

"Looking at this blokes pedigree he carries litterm8's Joe and Max Moss in the x path of his pedigree thru Aus cornerstone brood Elsie Moss.
Looks like he may be just as good or dare I say it even better than Kinloch Brae at stud here, with a chance of nicking with a brood who carries other litterm8 Mister Moss (pref within 11 gens) in x, of which I imagine there will still be few, with Temlee still imposing in blood lines here.

Putting SH Avatar over a bitch carrying Temlee in the x path within 8 gens will give up a triple cross thru litter bros Joe/Max/and Mister Moss to cornerstone brood Elsie Moss within 12 gens, and therefore hopefully generate great intensity within the pedigree.

There's always a reason why outcrosses are successful here."

I have also read David Brasch say similar about Kinloch Brae.

Here is a link to the other topic on SH Avatar CLICK HERE

Kinloch on the hand gives up Elsie Moss in the 6th generation - you just cant get Elsie that close with any stud dog anymore, and once again you introduce a brood carrying Temlee in x.............well you just give your broody a real chance don't you if she has what it takes.

The only stud that comes close that I know of here in Aus is Our Toyman CLICK HERE who carries Elsie Moss in x in the 7th generation through his grandam Lady Cuthbert CLICK HERE . Of course you need a broody to carry littermates Miller's Moss and/or Rose Moss (and not Temlee), to possibly create the maximum intensity through littermates in x.

It's amazing Our Toyman is not patronised a lot more as a sire considering he carries the closest access to Elsie Moss in the x path than any other Aus sire I know of.

There is no doubt that Elsie Moss is making a massive resurgence in Aus pedigrees due to Kinloch & Avatar but lets not forget the original x path intensity (which Our Toyman now carries) that catapulted Elsie Moss to cornerstone brood status in Aus breeding :

Web of Silence: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Worth Doing: 5 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Bit Chili: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Cee Four: 9 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Dyna Lachlan: 8 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Prince of Tigers: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Fantasy Fortune: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Bright Ebony: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Big Moose: 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Fox Hunt 6 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss (thru Mister Moss & Honey Lass)

Their are 3 sets of littermates here. The most prominent thru Elsie Moss are Miller's Moss & Clay Moss, however in Bright Ebony case for example it's Mister Moss and Pearl Moss & Fox Hunt is different again as shown above.

imo it's always wise to remember even when you outcross that it's important to linebreed in the x path through litter mates or full blood relations to preferably a cornerstone brood with a view to possibly produce the maximum intensity.

Enter new outcross stud Flying Fired Up CLICK HERE who carries Elsie Moss in x through once again her son Max Moss(similar to Avatar & Kinloch) this time in the 8th generation. This is evidenced down his damline to K's Flak CLICK HERE . Your broody wld need to carry Temlee (or even his sister Viola Lee) within 8 generations or less in x for possible maximum effect. Cheers.

Not sure whats more alarming

Such contrasting results between 3 different continents

Leading sire in matings in the US (for obvious reasons)

A very common finding between a lot of litters that is calm easy to work with and good chase in AUS

Or that you havent joined the dots and concluded 1 place is the odd one out in results that are commonly called here low !

You were advised by someone who knows the line better then anyone

Doug Riches wrote:

Ben George wrote: I have just got my two Sh Avatars x Scissor Queens 16 months old and Im very happy........... certainly a under used site imo Ben, Best of luck with these pups. I know Avatars bloodline very well, I whelped his mom, and had a all American record breaker from his moms sister. True grit in this bloodline. I never raised a litter with more prey drive. These were Canadian born and raised. One thing I would keep in mind the bloodline is built with both speed and power. Tailoring it to the right female, and tracks you intend to run are very important I believe. I have watched from afar, and think too many times American bloodlines, are given up on early as they don't get broke in properly or started on the right kind of track. Avatar has helped put the number one bitch in the USA , as the top producer for 2017, and looking good for 2018, MONEY MAID. I too, whelped , raised and trained her. I was going to breed her to my dog Paddy Whacker, and believe would have had great results as well. The females from both these males should not be overlooked as producers IMO. I will be watching for your pups , and wish you the best of luck with them. Nice breeding !!

A few things to look at dean would be techniques used ! And even further detail mentioned above .

At present it doesnt add up from your end in the few or concerning stats yous have presented !
Can anyone put up % s on Aust Avatars that have DISQ or awkward ....whatever that means ?? Next to their names or stewards reports !

Calling Bruce teague and your monster memory computer drive !

Ill have a side bet that its less then our top 5 sires at present ! If any at all

Kevin Lindsay wrote:

Looking at his IE/UK litters he has 9 racing with 57 raced runners. Of the nine broods four (44.44%) have produced 7 (12.28%) dogs between them with Disqualified or Awkward against their race comments. The four broods were by Top Honcho, Iso Octane, Vans Escalade and Where's Pedro. He certainly can throw fast animals to certain lines but I think it would be worth waiting before passing judgement.

Cheers Mick and Ryan for that extra info , def worth keeping in mind ,gold !

Good luck all

Thanks mate.