Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 3483 Dogs 68 / Races 14 09 Dec 2018 04:42
Sandro Bechini wrote:
Mark Staines wrote:
No doubt about his Motor but his 2 turn form is unremarkable so far !!!!
You are roughly my age, you must remember that is was the one-turn speed dogs that made the greatest sires
Temlee , New Tears , Benjamin John and Pretty Short hardly one turn speed Dogs !!!!
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 17753 Dogs 14268 / Races 1816 09 Dec 2018 21:18
Pretty Short was a Northern Rivers champion over all distances
But there was Brother Fox, The Smoother, Black Top, Dusty Rapid, more recently Walkabout Sid, Head Honcho, Wheres Pedro, Black Magic Opal, El Grand Senor, Knocka Norris, even Brett Lee held quite a few one turn records, all great one turn dogs that also had the class to win in the big time in town on 2 turns
Would love to see Aston kimetto get a top class 2-turn victory. I think its only a matter of time
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 856 Dogs 13 / Races 0 02 Feb 2019 14:04
Backed up winning the Cranbourne Cup Final with an awesome display of speed running 29.76
Nice pick Sandro .... your prediction is proving itself
All class and will have plenty of future admirers in racing and breeding
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 4158 Dogs 4 / Races 0 09 Feb 2019 23:01
Only issue in choosing sons of these types of sires to replace them is that you lose the primary linebreeding intensity in the x path to cornerstone brood Elsie Moss through Max Moss which imo contributed vastly to some of these dogs successes. You do however gain some great outcross positioning to balance the intensity you may create thru their dams and your broodie in future matings with these dogs.
Always plus' & minus' in breeding, we need to be aware of both. cheers.
Edward (ted) Howard Australia (Verified User) Posts 995 Dogs 16 / Races 0 10 Feb 2019 09:24
Hi Ryan Im trying to understand your intensity and saturation themes so by using andos mac over winklee terror and brooks doll having a double x to elsie moss does this equate to intensity or saturation just wondering.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 4158 Dogs 4 / Races 0 11 Feb 2019 05:02
Rather than looking at your bitch & keeping on topic if we look at Orson Allen's litter to demonstrate x path.......with outcrosses it's generally pretty easy as most of their pedigree are o/s dogs.
Firstly let me say I've found intensity within a pedigree can be created thru x path and/or by saturating a successful niche in a damline at a very high percentage within 5 gens.
The intensity created by the saturation theme is explained in the 'trends in breeding' topic. You can find it by putting 'trends in breeding' in the small search engine located on the right directly above the forum topics.
The intensity created by the x path for Orson Allen's litter CLICK HERE ....if you click Skiddy Flash in the 5th gen in Orson Allen's ped CLICK HERE you'll see Max Moss 4 gens further back which is by Which Chariot x Elsie Moss.
A crude but possibly the easiest explanation to understand x is that 'the x chromosome genetically can't pass thru two males consecutively' on the way to Orson Allen's litter. So if you follow Max Moss' from his position in the pedigree, you'll see his x chromosome doesn't pass thru 2 males consecutively along the way to Orson Allen's litter.
Similarly if you click on Star Lee in the 5th gen of Orson's damline CLICK HERE you'll see Max Moss' brother Mister Moss 4 gens further back, and if you follow Mister Moss from his position in the pedigree, you'll see his x chromosome doesn't pass thru 2 males consecutively along the way to Orson Allen's litter.
So Orson Allen's litter is intensely linebred in x to Elsie Moss thru brothers Max & Mister Moss. I've found x path intensity thru litterm8's or full blood relations can work well up to 12 gens but can get a little hit/miss 13 gens on.
Ted if you or anyone else doesn't understand this explanation of x feel free to contact me on the pho no in my user profile and I'm happy to go thru it with you. Just make sure you are sitting in front of a pc when you call. If it's an expensive call for you, PM me your no with a convenient time and I'll call you back. No emails please, they take too long to word. Cheers.
Edward (ted) Howard Australia (Verified User) Posts 995 Dogs 16 / Races 0 11 Feb 2019 13:57
Thanks Ryan pretty much understand the x path its the intensity in 12 gens I have trouble with as it seems a long way to come and still be relevant.Cheers Ted.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 4158 Dogs 4 / Races 0 11 Feb 2019 22:20
For sure Ted agree, the further back the less likely, but they dont have to be that far back CLICK HERE . Perfect outcross positioning with Tivoli Dreamer and Which Chariot in a primary 'not in x' position to balance all that intensity in x thru litterm8's the mating brings to the table.
Look at Kinloch Brae he carries Max Moss in x in the 5th gen CLICK HERE . You just cant get that in Aus that close anymore to a cornerstone brood in Elsie Moss, and if you've got a bitch that carries Temlee in x in comes Max's brother Mister Moss into play................. any wonder Kinloch's been so successful in Aus as a sire, tipping the vast majority of broods he's had carries Temlee in x.
Keep in mind if you use a son of Kinloch as a stud dog for example you lose Max Moss in x as the x chrome can't genetically get to the litter as it cant travel through 2 males consecutively i.e., Kinloch Brae and his son. So only bitches that carry Kinloch in x will keep Max Moss' x chrome alive. If I had one of those bitches I would ensure I wld breed it back to a sire that carried Temlee in x within 8 gens(prob not easy), just to create that same linebreeding angle in reverse.
With outcrosses it sticks out like the proverbial. That's why I always say even when you outcross ensure that there is linebreeding thru litterm8's or FBR's in x to a cornerstone brood or in the least a cross in x that's been successful previously such as Gorgeous Babe, if for nothing else but to just give yourself a chance of producing a decent city racer.
12 gens is just a guide, all I'm saying about that is once you get past 12 gens, it gets inconsistent. I wldn't get too hung up on that. Cheers.
Edward (ted) Howard Australia (Verified User) Posts 995 Dogs 16 / Races 0 12 Feb 2019 09:28
Thanks again Ryan I think Im getting too old it goes in but it don't stay there. Cheers Ted.
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 856 Dogs 13 / Races 0 09 Mar 2019 10:48