I haven't had a litter to keybow, sulzanti or hay Fergus. I just think that it's a bit weak mentioning if you think the broodies are high or low quality. they were good enough at the time of mating to give a sire a go and prove him. As you said I'm sure the stud masters are greatful, but there is no reason to now say that they weren't as good as other sires got. Everyone already knows that.

Everyone knows that Fernando bale has had the easiest ride to the top just by the weight in numbers of top broodies. It for some reason is left unsaid about the number of 400m country broodies as you put them that have litters to him that are a second too slow to make a track, but that's a total different argument.

And regarding if I had a sire would I prefer a 600m group winning broodie or a 400m country dog. I can guarantee no stud master would knock back a My Little Mate type even though most of her wins were tab c country wins at Richmond. There are plenty of dogs that were kept over the shorts because of injuries etc.

%100 correct Sandro

Its never been a factor in any of the matings Ive done. Very happy to say that as fact

I get where your coming from. Most breeders have to sell at least a few pups to survive.

Statistics for using proven sires over unproven sires would be higher in terms of success rates in production of city class stock as a general rule.

I think the Dam is at least % 75 of the picture, surely trying to push percentages as high as you can when your taking a expensive gamble like breeding a litter ( $ 30K -$ 35K to get to track) is a smart play.

Ill stick to the proven sires if there available whu not? , I think some of the negative talk about certain sires on this forum has a lot more to do with the stud master, owner or trainer of said sire and peoples dislike of them more than the dog itself and its offspring.

Pretty transparent with some serial offenders on this forum.

I think in Nsw you have to be honest and realise the impact of welfare changes and the reality that the breeder is responsible for the dog for its life cycle while they retain ownership, pups can no longer be discarded after breakin if they didn't meet the expectation.
Breeders are looking for as much certainty as they can get which means proven sires are a much safer option

btw I wld have much preferred to have disagreed with you. haha. cheers.

That would be the complete picture
You can do this yourself through Grv site but on all runners , just painful
But an exercise well worth it and in every Breeders best interest

Your right about that John because it puts you chance of getting a city class pup in black and white and the numbers are rough most sires % 90 are above 1 in 12 pups born. We all take a massive punt when we breed a litter.

The informations all there on grv just takes a bit of time to go thru individual litter results per sire, scary reeding when you actually take the time to do ICWs to pups born stats. its a real eye opener. you've still got to try to take into account quality of brood but that can be done by looking at stats for ICW per city class brood verse ICW totals to get a basic idea.

Nathan Bendeich wrote:

That would be the complete picture You can do this yourself through Grv site but on all runners , just painful But an exercise well worth it and in every Breeders best interest

It would be the complete picture if the same bloke reared them. Too many variables.

Every sire has to contest the same variables through the different stages or time periods of their stud careers

Poor excuse for strike sires who throw one beauty and 6 duds

Disagree

This doesnt just happen to one or 2 stud Dogs pups

Every pup born is potentially subjected to this occurrence

Point is it evens itself out , you could do pups born to win ratio , there isnt going to be 1 stud dog that has all the bad rearers

Talk to all the studmasters , they all have their fair share of sad stories

How many collisions ( heady) have been ruined , my bro Fabios ( sensitive types ) left in paddocks untouched , dyna double one ( wild ) left uneducated or disciplined
Barcias (mad ) under stimulated..... banjo boy ( massive motors ) under handled and pushed way too young ! and it goes on and on for each sire that his negative trait exaggerated through lack of effort or knowledge in what is needed to assist its own particular breed and passing trait

I dont need to be reminded that Fernando probably wasnt maybe subjected to this in comparison to the volume of 1k new sires as everyone buying 5-9k straws have better set ups or Elite contacts in assisting their investments

We all know this and are aware , he would be the exception
Tip
Talk to any breaker and theyll sing the same disappointing song
Cant put a lead on em for 2 weeks and need 2 attempts at getting job done

Why ?????

Coz left in these so called you beaut big paddocks until 14mths , and this doesnt exclude top rearing farms

So to say you cant get a guide on born to wins Ill agree to disagree Simon

Cheers good luck

As most will agree there are a lot of very good dogs not being patronised sires listed in order of oldest pups .. Ive added Sulzanti and Allkel To Excel to the list .. some of these sires have served a number of bitches that are due to whelp shortly so their litter numbers will change considerably in the next few months. Apologies for any errors

Your list gives a more realistic view of the true picture.
Thanks for going to the effort of putting it together.
"Up and coming young sires" should only be judged on number of bitches served in the first 6 months after they are registered for stud duties. This will give a true indication if breeders want them, or not. Although, the majority will hold off for 2-3 years to see what the first crop produce. Purely my opinion.

It will be interesting to see if, percentage wise, the ones with older pups have a greater usage or drop off once their first ones make it to the track.

Take WALK HARD who I would consider a good stud chance.

Served a few litters got a litter that could run in 2015 - then gets a few more after people see a few running in city class but in the meantime is now forgotten, so much so he isn't even on this list.

Now he has 24 litters on the ground from 2017 and 18 but not sure that is enough.

To be top of mind you need consistent and solid numbers with pups coming through regularly which I just cant see many getting sadly. Andos mac. I loved watching that dog but he will probably be judged on 10 litters.

What I do know is that the definition of a proven stud dog is going to have to change cause they aren't getting the numbers they used to anymore.

Sh avatar and banjo boy are prime examples. They had a some very good pups straight up, but it still took ebby ripper (sh) and big flood (bb) for people to take notice and give them the attention they needed

More or less the sires that won't have to need serious luck are

*keybow
*Dyna villa
*moreira
*worm burner
*sulzanti
*zambora Brockie
*unlawful entry
*thirty talks
*blazin bomber
*Aussie infrared
*Aston dee bee
*mepunga blazer
*my Redeemer (no litters yet but plenty booked)

And even most of these still are gonna need luck, but at least they have over 20 matings and have enough chances to get something