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Daryl Barrett Australia (Verified User) Posts 1739 Dogs 1 / Races 0 16 May 2020 17:22
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Ohhh Graham..stop it,mate,could you imagine how much that straw would be worth,arguably the most influential stud dog in the world even now...gee's mate the thought of it,ahhh dear,especially if you're bitch was influenced by Brother Fox !Wow...if only mate. Back on topic,i always thought that it wasn't the most successful way to breed,but saying that, i'm no expert.
Graham Moscow wrote:
Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
I always thought the unofficial definition of inbreeding was within 3 gens Steven, not sure a 1 x 5 qualifies. cheers.
My understanding is a sire 5 or more generations back in pedigree is reused, thats Back to the Future breeding. This variation of breeding now growing. Imagine having a Temlee straw.
Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 4166 Dogs 3 / Races 3 17 May 2020 02:53
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Not one inbred test mating posted
Michael Worth Australia (Verified User) Posts 875 Dogs 2 / Races 0 17 May 2020 04:18
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I agree Dan, more like linebreeding. Cheers
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4497 Dogs 70 / Races 14 17 May 2020 04:24
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Instead of throwing Daggers from the side lines why don't the 2 Breeding Guru's above give an example of what they think is inbreeding !!!!!
Michael Worth Australia (Verified User) Posts 875 Dogs 2 / Races 0 17 May 2020 05:53
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Im like you Mark , no breeding guru. But if you dont know Inbreeding is much more intense. It is the continual breeding back to one individual who usually appears on every line as far back as ten generations and can cosist of Father/Daughter , Brother/Sister, Uncle/Niece matings and so on. Offspring from these different matings are also mated back together creating an inbred family. Just to go one step further from someone who knows nothing. A good breeder should only continue to breed from offspring from these matings that show the desirable traits or qualities. I have a family of racing pigeons known as jan Aardens which are an extreme distance pigeon and are only the only family of racing pigeon known to carry or produce a crest or topnotch. I aquired a pair of these pigeons from imported stock in 1996 which did not possess any crest or plumage variations. After continually linebreeding back to the original pair I produced squeakers with crests. I was so excited to read the stories of the great Dolle Kuif a famous Jan Aarden pigeon that won numerous prizes in marathon races and also carried a crest. And now to finally produce pigeons with a crest. This took about six years. Unfortunately any youngsters that carried a crest were found to be weak in the nest. Not good feeders. Not great fliers either and I quickly realised how far I could go. The pigeons from the same matings that didnt carry a crest were consistent fliers and an absolute beauty to look at. These pigeons were later bred with to carry on the inbreeding of this family. You must always outcross to only good stock but must always come back to the original family in the next mating. I Hope that helps. Cheers
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4497 Dogs 70 / Races 14 17 May 2020 09:22
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You cannot compare Pigeons to Greyhounds because as an ex Pigeon flier i know you can breed a lot closer with Birds than Dogs !!!!! The Legend Mr Keith Wrightson raced for decades without outcrossing his inbred Macleans but eventually introduced Meulemans who added speed but shortened the distance of his famous long distance Macleans.My best results were with Pigeons that were 75% one strain 25% outcross as Racers !!!! When you cross 2 inbred families together anything is possible good and bad !!!!! Wrightson the Legend crossed back into his inbred family and dominated long distance races again.
Paul Gebhard United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 329 Dogs 613 / Races 81 17 May 2020 13:30
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Just waiting for this lady to come into season then we shall be doing this
Intentionally doubling up NIFTY NIAMH the dam of PREMIER FANTASY
Cheers
Michael Worth Australia (Verified User) Posts 875 Dogs 2 / Races 0 17 May 2020 20:14
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Geez Mark we do have something in common and youre right you can't compare pigeons to greyhounds and I wasnt just giving examples of inbreeding as you asked. However I think greyhounds are more like pigeons than pigeons like greyhounds because its not very often a pigeon runs home but you often here trainers say, you should of seen my dog he FLEW home. LOL. Cheers. PS. Do you still have pigeons and Keith was a legend. I used to organise the liberation point up my way for you guys with Norm Baker and Allan Wonson. Small world.
Tony Digiorgio Australia (Verified User) Posts 1008 Dogs 25 / Races 0 17 May 2020 20:16
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michael worth wrote:
Im like you Mark , no breeding guru. But if you dont know Inbreeding is much more intense. It is the continual breeding back to one individual who usually appears on every line as far back as ten generations and can cosist of Father/Daughter , Brother/Sister, Uncle/Niece matings and so on. Offspring from these different matings are also mated back together creating an inbred family. Just to go one step further from someone who knows nothing. A good breeder should only continue to breed from offspring from these matings that show the desirable traits or qualities. I have a family of racing pigeons known as jan Aardens which are an extreme distance pigeon and are only the only family of racing pigeon known to carry or produce a crest or topnotch. I aquired a pair of these pigeons from imported stock in 1996 which did not possess any crest or plumage variations. After continually linebreeding back to the original pair I produced squeakers with crests. I was so excited to read the stories of the great Dolle Kuif a famous Jan Aarden pigeon that won numerous prizes in marathon races and also carried a crest. And now to finally produce pigeons with a crest. This took about six years. Unfortunately any youngsters that carried a crest were found to be weak in the nest. Not good feeders. Not great fliers either and I quickly realised how far I could go. The pigeons from the same matings that didnt carry a crest were consistent fliers and an absolute beauty to look at. These pigeons were later bred with to carry on the inbreeding of this family. You must always outcross to only good stock but must always come back to the original family in the next mating. I Hope that helps. Cheers
Nicely explained Mick.
Tony Digiorgio Australia (Verified User) Posts 1008 Dogs 25 / Races 0 17 May 2020 20:28
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Mark Staines wrote:
You cannot compare Pigeons to Greyhounds because as an ex Pigeon flier i know you can breed a lot closer with Birds than Dogs !!!!! The Legend Mr Keith Wrightson raced for decades without outcrossing his inbred Macleans but eventually introduced Meulemans who added speed but shortened the distance of his famous long distance Macleans.My best results were with Pigeons that were 75% one strain 25% outcross as Racers !!!! When you cross 2 inbred families together anything is possible good and bad !!!!! Wrightson the Legend crossed back into his inbred family and dominated long distance races again.
Hi Mark, You are right. Keith was an absolute legend and a gentleman.
I think you will find that genetics apply to all living things in the same way. The only difference is that with pigeons you have all the "family" members in your own back yard, but with greyhounds they are scattered all over the place and harder to obtain the best in the family to continue strong line or in-breeding. The late Allen Wheeler had a lot of his best at his disposal which is why he continually had champion dogs.
Ricky Hassall Australia (Verified User) Posts 227 Dogs 21 / Races 2 17 May 2020 21:42
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Paul Gebhard wrote:
Just waiting for this lady to come into season then we shall be doing this
Intentionally doubling up NIFTY NIAMH the dam of PREMIER FANTASY
That's a great pedigree Paul......and Nifty Niamh was a very strong bitch. I like it!
Cheers
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4497 Dogs 70 / Races 14 17 May 2020 22:28
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michael worth wrote:
Geez Mark we do have something in common and youre right you can't compare pigeons to greyhounds and I wasnt just giving examples of inbreeding as you asked. However I think greyhounds are more like pigeons than pigeons like greyhounds because its not very often a pigeon runs home but you often here trainers say, you should of seen my dog he FLEW home. LOL. Cheers. PS. Do you still have pigeons and Keith was a legend. I used to organise the liberation point up my way for you guys with Norm Baker and Allan Wonson. Small world.
Mick I've only had a stock loft no time to race, my Macleans came from Bobby Hawkins mostly a couple from Wrightson same Pigeons as they were best m8's !!!!!!
John Little Australia (Verified User) Posts 56 Dogs 5 / Races 0 18 May 2020 08:19
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Would this be considered inbreeding? Pure Titanium x Bungaloo Sunset. Sorry cant do the click thing
Mick Whyte Australia (Verified User) Posts 1109 Dogs 23 / Races 3 18 May 2020 12:30
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john little wrote:
Would this be considered inbreeding? Pure Titanium x Bungaloo Sunset. Sorry cant do the click thing
Michael Worth Australia (Verified User) Posts 875 Dogs 2 / Races 0 18 May 2020 21:03
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The Macleans and Harrisons were pretty much unbeatable on their day especially the hard ones. Even with all the imports I think they would still be a valuable asset to any stock loft. Cheers
Simon Moore Australia (Verified User) Posts 2366 Dogs 32 / Races 393 20 May 2020 05:56
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Wanted to do this but Florida didn't come on season again unfortunately.
Michael Worth Australia (Verified User) Posts 875 Dogs 2 / Races 0 21 May 2020 02:20
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Personally I think you need to have the double co-efficient x for inbreeding at least at 25% or more to be really identified as inbreeding. You must remember the sire can only pass on his X chromosomes to his daughters. You often hear Ryan refer to the x path. The easiest way to understand this is to do some simple inbred testmatings. For example Bombastic Shiraz x Miata his daughter. Brett Lee with Bettys Angel should give you above 25% inbreeding but if you mated Lochinvar Marlow with Bettys Angel the inbreeding will actually be similar or higher as BL lies in the X path of Lochinvar Marlow even though further back in the pedigree. Its really quite interesting. Fernando Bale has been a success at stud I think most would agree even though he has had a large number of quality bitches. Its interesting to note though that 18 of his top 20 offspring are males and do not carry the X factor from Fernando. It will be interesting to see how they go at stud. Its a little early to say IMO to see how he will shape the breed as not many of his daughters who carry his X chromosomes have had litters. JMO. Cheers
Jimmy Corbo Australia (Verified User) Posts 435 Dogs 16 / Races 126 22 May 2020 01:08
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Hi Michael,
To clarify my understanding and using the Bombastic Shiraz x Miata example, am I correct in saying the "X theory" would mean you couldn't line breed Lansley Bale via Miata?
Personally I think you need to have the double co-efficient x for inbreeding at least at 25% or more to be really identified as inbreeding. You must remember the sire can only pass on his X chromosomes to his daughters. You often hear Ryan refer to the x path. The easiest way to understand this is to do some simple inbred testmatings. For example Bombastic Shiraz x Miata his daughter. Brett Lee with Bettys Angel should give you above 25% inbreeding but if you mated Lochinvar Marlow with Bettys Angel the inbreeding will actually be similar or higher as BL lies in the X path of Lochinvar Marlow even though further back in the pedigree. Its really quite interesting. Fernando Bale has been a success at stud I think most would agree even though he has had a large number of quality bitches. Its interesting to note though that 18 of his top 20 offspring are males and do not carry the X factor from Fernando. It will be interesting to see how they go at stud. Its a little early to say IMO to see how he will shape the breed as not many of his daughters who carry his X chromosomes have had litters. JMO. Cheers
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
