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Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 18 Sep 2020 09:26
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Who said I wanted to do that!?? Im merely showing examples from left field.
But, you can twist it anyway you like with Gails Beauty...even jump a couple of generations ahead to all those immaculate city winners. It doesnt change the fact...excuse(s) were being made for her by Wheeler.
Gails Beauty appears to have been a dodgepot, with some sort of ability...how much we dont know. Unless someone has her race record?? She then had a failed litter. As a result her original owner then offloaded her for free...a giveaway. Which initially Wheeler Snr wasnt interested in.
Doesnt all that just make you want to jump and breed Gails Beauty at the time.
I guess we will never know the true story until PAW comes on here himself and tells us
But old Alan was a very astute person and there is no doubt that there was something about Gails Beauty that made him accept the bitch at the time.
I don't need to skip any generations to validate the argument because if you look Gails Beauty produced enough top grade bitches to go on with & the rest is history CLICK HERE
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 18 Sep 2020 09:43
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Wheeler Snr is on record as initially not wanting her!
I found an old article which said:-
Gails Beauty could only manage 4 wins
Gails Beauty (Hot Top - Secret Beauty) was a gift from South Coast oyster farmer Frank Olson. Who wanted her to be given a good home, rather than be destroyed
When Wheeler took over Gails Beauty she had produced one litter to Keen Student and the pups could only manage a few wins on country tracks. Then from a complete outcross to Irish sire Proper Streak .she threw the good city winners Pacermatic Top Streak and Sir Englisher.
had sold his business and was moving. He could not take Gails Beauty with him."
So was he a butcher or an oyster farmer LOL
Was GB a fast bitch despite only recording 4 wins? Why would old Alan take a bitch that was slow?
Looks like the story is warped
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 18 Sep 2020 09:58
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It looks like the Wheelers had an incredible brood fall into their lap. But it's not that stroke of luck lack made them great breeders, it's what they have done subsequently and that was done using the best to the best, with occasional outcrossing.
Dareen, I'm not trying to be smart here, but you've had a few top races bitches over the last coiple of decades and have done a bloody ordinary job with them, sorry to say. Considering you are a breeding guru, with all the answers.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 18 Sep 2020 10:03
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Well he didnt want her to start with. My article was from the late 60s.
With Gails Beauty I being somewhat inbred...sound thinking to try an outcross. Guess, from that initial mating and subsequent success. The Wheelers have deviated from way back then. Using a plethora of outcross sires.
Then, he tried a very inbred mating to Millers Moss. But, similarly to all the great genes of the time.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 18 Sep 2020 10:11
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I had MLadys Fool. Who was around at the wrong time. It wasnt until the end of her breeding career there was any real access to outcross sires. As soon as a suitable one became available in Droopys Maldini I bred a very fast Group class dog from her. In retrospect MLadys Fool was inbred and ripe for outcross sires. If I had her now Id be breeding her that way.
However, the first mating I put her to Token Prince (2 pups - 1 dog, 1 bitch). I lost the dog at 6 months...breaking his foot in a galloping paddock. Full blood relation From A Distance vindicated my choice of Token Prince!
Her sister City Of Sydney dropped dead not long after retirement and never had a litter.
And of course I took brood Fancy Blonde from a global greyhounds classifieds ad leasing her for a litter after a failed litter to Royal Assassin by her owner...to then breed Kalden Fury. Then I gave her back to her breeder and never bred her again.
Currently I have bred and owned Frieda Las Vegas racing.
Ive never claimed to be a breeding guru. Just always someone willing to put my money where my mouth is...
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 18 Sep 2020 11:15
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Enough Touch fellas lets keep it positive Allen Wheeler obviously saw something worthy in GB to breed with her. A Dodgepot is a fast dog that is hot and cold in race performance without any Valid reason. So was Allen breeding with GB out of the square ( unorthodox ) or not ?
IMO taking The 60s in consideration Allen went out the square with Proper Streak X GB. Excellence alone is not enough You need Luck
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 18 Sep 2020 11:24
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But surely if it doesn't matter about the quality of the bitch and breeding outside the square is the answer, you would have bred on with Kalden Fury's sisters and Mladys Fool's progeny. After all the true measure of the breeder is longevity and improving the dam line.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 18 Sep 2020 11:38
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If you read what I said earlier and above...I never really got that MLadys Fool female I wanted to breed on and on with. My one big mistake was living in NSW...bringing stock down here and using some less than desirable rearing establishments. After that mistake, I wrote the line off and have now looked to start again.
Kalden Fury was merely an experiment to prove to myself I could breed a good dog. Nothing more...sold all my pups at 3 months.
Well he didnt want her to start with. My article was from the late 60s.
With Gails Beauty I being somewhat inbred...sound thinking to try an outcross. Guess, from that initial mating and subsequent success. The Wheelers have deviated from way back then. Using a plethora of outcross sires.
Then, he tried a very inbred mating to Millers Moss. But, similarly to all the great genes of the time.
Outcrossing Gails Beauty definitely set up the template for the future to the point where they outcrossed their line so much and then produced sires that they bred their own damline back into starting with Ashom Bale, Riverlee Bale and then onto the greats they have today in Bartrim Bale, Bekim & Heston Bale, Barcia Bale, Dyna Double One and of course Fernando Bale
Now that is outside the square!!
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 18 Sep 2020 23:49
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And the fact its the dam line of the great Top Linen...probably didnt hurt the consideration to take a chance and breed her? Especially when they noted Gails Beauty ...had the same markings as her famous 3rd mother Brenda Gay (dam of Top Linen). A comment like that would suggest they were looking back in the pedigree...not just at her racing form???
Its been a superstar dam line in other branches as well hasnt it...Odious, General Jeff, Legendary Kid..all the McGrath Proven dogs...right the way through to Warrens Flyer, Faithful Hawk and Proper Tears, Henry Hand. All seriously fast greyhounds!
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 19 Sep 2020 01:43
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Do you really think breeders were so pedigree obsessed 30, 50 or 100 years ago?
It all seems so obvious now when you can view dozens of generations with the simple click of the mouse, now we have Greyhound Data.
I have the feeling we are finding positives in old pedigrees because we want to find them, not because they were intended.
I can remember hand writing pedigrees on the back of a sire card and having no idea what I was looking for.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Sep 2020 02:13
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Tesio Selective breeding principles flowed over into greyhound breeding 100 yrs ago, with every decade that pasted the back yard breeding dissolved and selective breeding took over. G Data shows the surviving genetics and successful blood lines.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Sep 2020 02:13
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Graham Moscow wrote:
Tesio Selective breeding principles flowed over into greyhound breeding 100 yrs ago, with every decade that past the back yard breeding dissolved and selective breeding took over. G Data shows the surviving genetics and successful blood lines.
Mutton Cutlet, Staff Officer, Tanist, Bellas Son genes still going strong
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 19 Sep 2020 02:36
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I call BS, hindsight is 20/20 vision. I'm positive the vast majority of sires selected historically were because they were down the road and readily available.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Sep 2020 02:44
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Paul Dicks wrote:
I call BS, hindsight is 20/20 vision. I'm positive the vast majority of sires selected historically were because they were down the road and readily available.
Your shooting from the hip. Yes back yard breeding was huge until selective breeding introduced and became normal practice The Telephone played its part increasing selective breeding.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 19 Sep 2020 02:57
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Do you honestly think many Greyhound breeders were using Tessio, Rasmussen or any other breeding theories all those years ago? I think it's a classic case of if you want to find anything badly enough you will see it.
Edward (Ted) Howard Australia (Verified User) Posts 1195 Dogs 16 / Races 0 19 Sep 2020 03:18
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I remember back in the sixties- seventys Jack Williamson would use the year book of breeding to decide his choice of sire but he also could also tell you the breeding of most dogs at the time staight off the top of his head and he bred some bloody good dogs over the years and most top breeders of the time would do the same it wasnt just guesswork.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 19 Sep 2020 04:00
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I'm certainly not saying it was completely random sire selection, I'm just saying there wasn't the analysis that the current self proclaimed gurus believe there was in their choices.
For example we take for granted using FS from sires all over the world, yet I'm sure sah a breeder in Tasmania would use local sires or Victorian based sires. Logistically you couldn't use anything further afield.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
