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Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4497 Dogs 70 / Races 14 19 Sep 2020 11:06
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Darren are you a "Happy Clapper" ?
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 19 Sep 2020 11:06
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Darren Leeson wrote:
So basically the greyhound game back then was just Long Bay Jail??
Darren We all know what went on years ago its well known that many small time crook had involvement in Greyhounds and race horses but then again nothing has really changed has it in 2020.
What happened before DNA is all Hearsay nothing else and we took every persons word for it.
I would love to have a Stud book based on DNA only not hearsay IMO.
Please don't tell me that skullduggery and criminals don't exist in racing
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 19 Sep 2020 11:09
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Mark, of course Im not lol, but Im also a realist and while no doubt scrupulous goings on happened. Surely it wasnt a vast majority??? Afterall, you are talking about hearsay...
Im with you and Kevin though on DNA. Integrity of bloodlines must be protected.
Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 19 Sep 2020 12:00
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Before DNA, the integrity of a sire would not for been compromised within his early stages. Without results, breeders would not flock. Once the sire in question was established and sire-fees were on the rise, maybe that's when services got fiddled with (if it happened), especially when misses were occurring and good-hard-earn was exchanging hands.
The rumours Kevin talks about would have been fact obviously to those in the know and would go to the grave... and the wastage Darren suggests of these matings I also agree with. Most of these matings would have been average at best with the odd percentage making the grade & being used at stud. It's just the SIRES from these matings that were used that would cloud today's pedigrees.
As an example.....We all know about what happen when Amerigo Man was around when DNA surfaced, so was it coincidence that he died before he had the chance to be DNA like most of his brothers? If you've read Sarah's recollection about this famous litter that she's written about in interviews when she was a kid, the answer would be yes he's a member. But if he wasn't....the amount of pedigrees he's in today, probably around 80% would be controversial. But would it really matter nowadays if he wasn't apart of the litter as he's name is getting further & further down the pedigree chain.
My views are based on a commonsense approach, not fact.
Anyway.....Back on topic after my rant.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 19 Sep 2020 13:00
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That one about Amerigo Man Ive always been amused by Steve. Especially when you look at offspring of Just The Best, Token Prince and Surf Lorian.
This bitch always springs to mind on discussion of litter of the century - EXTERNAL LINK
Tony Gallagher Australia (Team Member) Posts 5910 Dogs 12949 / Races 40209 19 Sep 2020 17:55
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Can I ask a simple question: do people really believe that what happened 10 generations ago in a sire or bitches pedigree really has any impact on how the pups bred today are going to turn out?
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 19 Sep 2020 19:05
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Put it this way Tony, youd be amazed what can work in a pedigree. The best way to see it is look at thoroughbred breeders. They love back-depths of pedigrees!
Tony Gallagher Australia (Team Member) Posts 5910 Dogs 12949 / Races 40209 19 Sep 2020 20:05
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Hi Darren, yes I understand the passion the "purists" have for the family tree and thank goodness they do or we may not have GD.
Members like yourself that follow the breeding and help other in the selection of sires or at least give breeders something to think about is fantastic and a big help. The point I am trying to make is that in breeding a litter of pups the genetic line must have a point where previous breeding has reached a point where it has no impact. The interesting thing for me would be to know is where the cut off is, for instance I think we would all agree Pilot has little genetic input on litters bred today. So how far back do we need to look at to see what is genetically affecting the ability, temperament, chase etc. of a litter members might want to breed today. It really is an interesting subject and the input into this thread has been thought provoking.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 19 Sep 2020 20:11
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My way of thinking Tony is...say even on the 5th or 6th line, the name on the family tree isnt just a name. Its a name that itself has a family tree. So whilst a breeder might be breeding 6x6 Amerigo Man...the breeder is also breeding Amerigo Mans inheritance.
The best way we see thoroughbred breeding work is when we use the imported outcrossed sire.
Tony Gallagher Australia (Team Member) Posts 5910 Dogs 12949 / Races 40209 19 Sep 2020 20:58
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Yes Darren, I go back to the 5th and 6th generation also. All before this do represent their parents and their parents represent their parents etc. but for me after the 5th or 6th generation I feel they have passed on the right genetic traits or they would not be there. It is all very interesting.
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 19 Sep 2020 21:31
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Tony Gallagher wrote:
Can I ask a simple question: do people really believe that what happened 10 generations ago in a sire or bitches pedigree really has any impact on how the pups bred today are going to turn out?
10 generations ago each Greyhound had a thousand ancestors, and 20 generations ago they had a million .
DNA shared or the CM we share gives us a huge advantage when looking at breeding IMO
Raymond Peter Fewings Australia (Verified User) Posts 248 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Sep 2020 21:47
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Many years ago I sent a bitch to Milo's Charm. Received photo of the mating. Produced several good dogs.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 19 Sep 2020 22:10
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Tony, as you know theres definitely more than one way to breed a good dog.
How do you and others explain the success of an outcross mating with no duplication etc points within 6 generations?
Tony Gallagher Australia (Team Member) Posts 5910 Dogs 12949 / Races 40209 19 Sep 2020 22:23
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Thats simple its an outcross therefore it is introducing new proven bloodlines into a bitch that has her own proven bloodlines. One can only assume that if a bitch had never had been been with a complete outcross in the past that she must of been line bred and we all know that line breeding in a lot of instances connects with a complete outcross.
I actually put this to the test years ago and with some friends and exported 5 bitches from Australia into the UK and Ireland. The results produced many open dogs throughout Europe including one of the best stud dogs ever in Germany and also a Scottish Derby winner.
It is interesting you mention Fear Haribo as an example as this was my breeding with my mate Liam Dowling.
Tony, as you know theres definitely more than one way to breed a good dog.
How do you and others explain the success of an outcross mating with no duplication etc points within 6 generations?
Its called Hybrid Vigour
"Heterosis, also called hybrid vigour, the increase in such characteristics as size, growth rate, fertility, and yield of a hybrid organism over those of its parents.
Plant and animal breeders exploit heterosis by mating two different pure-bred lines that have certain desirable traits.
Heterocyst is an unexpected deviation from the average of the two parental lines. The cause of heterosis the non-additive gene action (dominance, Overdominance and epistasis)."
That is one of the main reasons that PAW outcrossed so heavily for a period of time.
He recognized that the breed was becoming weaker due to heavy inbreeding to Temlee, while it produced fast individuals it produced fragile individuals in both physical and mental terms and the amount of wastage from his own stock was increasing.
As history has shown, short term the results were only average but in the longer term his stock have exceeded all expectations
Since that time with the introduction of premium frozen semen from around the world by various people our breed has solidified and many other breeders have taken advantage and created some great dogs out of them to hold us in good stead for the future
Whilst intense linebreeding is beneficial in many cases if done with full knowledge of the bloodlines you are dealing with, from what I have seen and observed it pays to outcross your damline at least every two generations
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 19 Sep 2020 23:07
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I understand all that Sandro, but IMO its not just a sound healthy dose of hybrid vigour, but key correlation of matching distance genes. Now Im not shoving that down anyones throat. Its just my opinion and the way I do it.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Sep 2020 23:10
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Great Post Sandro So Tesio was on the money. Line breed max 3 generations then out cross for max Vigour impact. For me influence comes from the first three generations, 4-6 generations completes the template then you look for nicks compatible crosses and compare pedigree with others. Gen 7 onwards you can see how damline as evolved. What gen was the first outcross ? How many generations consecutive of line breeding before outcross. Was the line flat not producing ? What reignited line ? So yes I think its important to look way back to origins. Every damline tells a story
I understand all that Sandro, but IMO its not just a sound healthy dose of hybrid vigour, but key correlation of matching distance genes. Now Im not shoving that down anyones throat. Its just my opinion and they way I do it.
Personally, I think its a big call to pinpoint a line from 8-10 generations ago given the millions of genetic variations that can occur with the various sire used along the way on a damline
In my opinion, the damline is the strength of the breed, if it is a dominant damline it adapts to the sire used and stamps it over time
Much like yesterdays Irish derby winner, Newinn Taylors damline, it has produced top class dogs for generations to any number of outcrossed and local sires
Sires with dominant traits like Head Honcho, Brett Lee, Brother Fox, New Tears, Black Shiraz, Kiowa Mon Manny, Larkhill Jo, Gable Dog, Premier Fantasy, Spiral Nikita, Malawi's Prince etc etc etc bring vigor into damlines that already possess the desirable traits that you have
They don't change the character of the damlines, they enhance them
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1342 Dogs 154 / Races 139 19 Sep 2020 23:35
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And thats fine, each to their own...like I said. When I chose Droopys Maldini for my bitch. Resulting in a very fast dog. It was a very selective process...matching distant like genes. As the litter was growing I constantly looked at that pedigree and said to myself...this mating just has to work (e.g produce a class animal)
It will always be the same way I select any future import sire.
Graham Moscow Australia (Verified User) Posts 1186 Dogs 0 / Races 0 19 Sep 2020 23:52
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Analogy time
Sires are the icing on a pedigree cake ( damline )
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
