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Do you have questions about breeding theories?
Or do you need tips on how to rear your pups?

Breeding outside the square...page  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 

Sandro Bechini
Australia
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Posts 18311
Dogs 14498 / Races 1817

20 Sep 2020 01:52


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Sure Droopys Fool was a very fast dog, no argument there

But his mum was an absolute champion winning 14 in a row and the Qld Futurity.

Given that the only outcrossed sires in 8 generations of her pedigree were Eddy Barry, Waverly Supreme and Tivoli Dreamer I am really interested in which distant genes you relied upon for the mating.

You may have already explained it to me once before but I just can't remember the rationale, but in the context of this discussion it may be useful for others to know what you relied upon to choose Droopys Maldini for her


Mark Staines
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3632
Dogs 68 / Races 14

20 Sep 2020 02:11


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CLICK HERE


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 273
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Sep 2020 02:16


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Sandro, both Paul Wheeler and I bred to Droopys Maldini here in Australia at the same time in 2007. He produced Dyna Forte and I Droopys Fool. Thereís plenty of the same genes in both broods.

Dyna Forte - CLICK HERE

Droooys Fool - EXTERNAL LINK

Then if you see 3 years later similarity in Classy Maldini (double cross Chariot Supreme)... youíll see all 3 broods carry similar genetic make ups and all 3 clicked with Droopys Maldini.

Classy Maldini - EXTERNAL LINK



Mark Staines
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3632
Dogs 68 / Races 14

20 Sep 2020 02:26


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M'lady's Fool pedigree was screaming for an outcross imo !!!!
A number of imports could have been used with same result, personally i would have gone the USA route !!!!
City Of Sydney defies her pedigree logic, who would have thought a top class stayer would come from her litter, not me !!!!
She was never bred from why ???


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 273
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Sep 2020 02:27


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Absolutely agree with you there Mark. Unfortunately she was around at the very start of the import frozen semen wave. There wasnít a lot around to choose from back then.

City of Sydney just dropped dead suddenly not long after retiring. Never got to breed her!


Sandro Bechini
Australia
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Posts 18311
Dogs 14498 / Races 1817

20 Sep 2020 02:35


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Dyna Forte has Luana Bale who has Grove Whisper and World Acclaim's damline up close

Classy Maldini has Mets Man in the 5th generation who is son of Sand Man

Nearly every broodbitch in Australia has Chariot Supreme in it and quite a few multiple times

Thats not really an explanation to correlate yourself with Paul Wheeler.

So you are saying Chariot Supremes distant relations is the key that unlocked the mystery.



Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 273
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Sep 2020 02:38


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You havenít mentioned the same genes though like Credibility, Dusty Rapid etc. thereís plenty of correlation between Dyna Forte and Droooys Fool.

The key to what you you said...is Paul wheeler and I decided upon Droopys Maldini for those lines! Where others didnít!


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 18311
Dogs 14498 / Races 1817

20 Sep 2020 02:48


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I don't believe that Newmore King and Come On Clopook from 10 generations past would have been responsible for Droopys Fool success, she may or may not have needed an outcross but I think M'Lady's Fool and Heart Spark had a lot to do with his success

I suggest Paul Wheeler relied on Droopys Maldini for different reasons. I doubt Chariot Supreme, Come On Clopook or Newmore King and decided that he was the one

He was one of the few outcross sires available at the time


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 273
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Sep 2020 02:53


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But, see thatís just your opinion and you have every right to that opinion. However, equally I have given you a little insight into my reasoning for choosing Droopys Maldini. Itís simply then for you to either rate it or not...all good!



Ryan Vanderwert
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4773
Dogs 4 / Races 0

20 Sep 2020 03:01


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Tony Gallagher wrote:

Can I ask a simple question: do people really believe that what happened 10 generations ago in a sire or bitches pedigree really has any impact on how the pups bred today are going to turn out?

Problem is Tony, you still get those substituted dogs in nicks that you're after that have been previously successful with the broods line, and are faced with the dilemna of having to rely on the nick or disregarding it and looking for another nick that was successful with the line. Usually the later. Cheers.


Matt James
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1427
Dogs 37 / Races 2

20 Sep 2020 04:19


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Breeding for certain nicks is great and I think we all do it, but sometimes I think it just needs to be looked at with a simplified view towards it (not saying certain crosses don't work time after time. Just saying there might be more to it than bloodlines)

Eg. If you have a hard chasing but over the top broodie go to a sire that can throw a little bit of sook

If you have a sooky broodie go to a sire with a bit of fire

If you have a good chasing but injury prone broodie go to a outcross sire to try to toughen up the breed




Paul Dicks
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 8871
Dogs 110 / Races 252

20 Sep 2020 04:35


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Sandro Bechini wrote:

Sure Droopys Fool was a very fast dog, no argument there

But his mum was an absolute champion winning 14 in a row and the Qld Futurity.

Given that the only outcrossed sires in 8 generations of her pedigree were Eddy Barry, Waverly Supreme and Tivoli Dreamer I am really interested in which distant genes you relied upon for the mating.

You may have already explained it to me once before but I just can't remember the rationale, but in the context of this discussion it may be useful for others to know what you relied upon to choose Droopys Maldini for her

Great to see the sire Eddy Barry mentioned, Sandro. I did a post years ago about just what an incredible sire he was.

CLICK HERE



Ryan Vanderwert
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4773
Dogs 4 / Races 0

20 Sep 2020 04:58


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 (0)


Matt James wrote:

Breeding for certain nicks is great and I think we all do it, but sometimes I think it just needs to be looked at with a simplified view towards it (not saying certain crosses don't work time after time. Just saying there might be more to it than bloodlines)

Eg. If you have a hard chasing but over the top broodie go to a sire that can throw a little bit of sook

If you have a sooky broodie go to a sire with a bit of fire...

Agree Matt, however you need not just "certain nicks" , but nicks that have clicked with that broodies damline previously. That's very important imo.

When you have narrowed that down to a handful of sires then chose the sire that suits the very valid points you've made. Cheers.


Paul Dicks
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 8871
Dogs 110 / Races 252

20 Sep 2020 05:10


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 (0)


Ryan Vanderwert wrote:

Matt James wrote:

Breeding for certain nicks is great and I think we all do it, but sometimes I think it just needs to be looked at with a simplified view towards it (not saying certain crosses don't work time after time. Just saying there might be more to it than bloodlines)

Eg. If you have a hard chasing but over the top broodie go to a sire that can throw a little bit of sook

If you have a sooky broodie go to a sire with a bit of fire...

Agree Matt, however you need not just "certain nicks" , but nicks that have clicked with that broodies damline previously. That's very important imo.

When you have narrowed that down to a handful of sires then chose the sire that suits the very valid points you've made. Cheers.

Hey Ryan, what breeding have you done lately? I haven't kept track.



Graham Moscow
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 858
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Sep 2020 05:37


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Mark Staines wrote:

CLICK HERE

CLICK HERE
Note Which Chariot first only full outcross on this old colonial damline

This line produced many good race dogs, Reg Kay Helen Lamberton did well with this line.
Mark I agree I would have sourced USA blood
Darren well done with your successful mating but we all see it differently. I see the sire out cross Larkhill Jo / Spiral Nikita / Iím Slippy giving pedigree a combo of outcross on sire line. I think thatís the big success factor



Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7581
Dogs 180 / Races 66

20 Sep 2020 10:05


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Graham Moscow wrote:

Mark I agree I would have sourced USA blood
Darren well done with your successful mating but we all see it differently. I see the sire out cross Larkhill Jo / Spiral Nikita / Iím Slippy giving pedigree a combo of outcross on sire line. I think thatís the big success factor


Hi Graham. Your spot on.

A mate of mine bred a bitch I bred to Kinloch Brae & got multiple Group performer who won the 2017 NSW Derby winner ---> CLICK HERE
I bred a 1/2 sister to Milldean Panther (inbred to Spiral Nikita & his sister) & produce another multiple Group performer ---> CLICK HERE


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 273
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Sep 2020 10:28


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Graham on what I mentioned you should have realised Spiral Nikita is most certainly at play and part of the reason why I chose Droopys Maldini.

Steve, I didnít have those examples back in 2007 to reference!! Out of curiosity did you reference Droopys Fool at any stage to put the Spiral Nikita cross to the same line 7 years later? Seeing it had already worked with the dam line. Even El Fooling as well?

If I remember correctly you mentioned back then you had done extensive research and believed Milldean Panther would work.

Ballymac Vic was already the template for Big Daddy Bee!



Graham Moscow
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 858
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Sep 2020 10:48


 (0)
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My apologies Darren
I did absorb but a bit slow off the mark as usual, also letting others give there opinions
Darren huge thanks for this topic and your ideas opinions, again well done on this pedigree.
Steve WOW Wee I love what you bred



Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7581
Dogs 180 / Races 66

20 Sep 2020 10:59


 (0)
 (0)


Darren Leeson wrote:

Steve, I didnít have those examples back in 2007 to reference!! Out of curiosity did you reference Droopys Fool at any stage to put the Spiral Nikita cross to the same line 7 years later? Seeing it had already worked with the dam line. Even El Fooling as well?


No, I wasn't looking for an outcross for that generation & my sire selections atm produced results I was more than happy with.
Darren Leeson wrote:

If I remember correctly you mentioned back then you had done extensive research and believed Milldean Panther would work.


Yes, you'll find that in a Linebreeding in x to Lemon Soda thread.
Darren Leeson wrote:

Ballymac Vic was already the template for Big Daddy Bee!


Exactly, & the breeder saw that & had a go which I had no say in.

Hi Graham. I didn't breed the Kinloch Brae litter, just the dam.


Darren Leeson
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 273
Dogs 12 / Races 50

20 Sep 2020 11:00


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 (0)


All good Graham.

Weíre all taking about the past. Letís make it interesting and look at one for the future. Iím very keen to give my bitch Ballinderry Girl a chance in the breeding barn.

Firstly, where does she sit as far as inside the square or outside the square? Sheís not a city winner, but multiple city placed, with a city class run home of 12.79. So, goes into the category of the earlier list I posted.

My opinion is sheís outside the square. Because, everyone has banged on in here about city winners...the perfect type etc

Now she was a bit of a bludger, but not that hard core iffy type. She did have good genuine early speed when she wanted to use it. Ref her at Warragul against Feluki Donna a 29.50 Sand winner. Ballinderry Girl picked her up in 2 strides and once she caught her just jogged to the line. So by no means a lost cause as a brood.

The mating Im going to definitely do at some stage is West On Augie. Any comments? Is it a good mating, can it work, is it inside or outside the square, what am I looking to do in this mating.

Weíll all be able to come back and see how close to the mark I was...

CLICK HERE


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