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World Greyhound Organisation

The World Greyhound Organisation (WGO) was formed to give all countries and their greyhounds a voice.

WGO will unite all countries under one umbrella to encourage development and understanding of the magnificent animal we call a greyhound. We need your support to make this a reality.

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Welcome to the Greyhound Knowledge Forum

   

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Do you have questions about breeding theories?
Or do you need tips on how to rear your pups?

Breeding outside the square...page  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 


Graham Moscow
Australia
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Posts 859
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Sep 2020 11:20


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Darren Leeson wrote:

All good Graham.

Were all taking about the past. Lets make it interesting and look at one for the future. Im very keen to give my bitch Ballinderry Girl a chance in the breeding barn.

Firstly, where does she sit as far as inside the square or outside the square? Shes not a city winner, but multiple city placed, with a city class run home of 12.79. So, goes into the category of the earlier list I posted.

My opinion is shes outside the square. Because, everyone has banged on in here about city winners...the perfect type etc

Now she was a bit of a bludger, but not that hard core iffy type. She did have good genuine early speed when she wanted to use it. Ref her at Warragul against Feluki Donna a 29.50 Sand winner. Ballinderry Girl picked her up in 2 strides and once she caught her just jogged to the line. So by no means a lost cause as a brood.

The mating Im going to definitely do at some stage is West On Augie. Any comments? Is it a good mating, can it work, is it inside or outside the square, what am I looking to do in this mating.

Well all be able to come back and see how close to the mark I was...

CLICK HERE

What an amazing damline



Paul Dicks
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 8872
Dogs 110 / Races 252

20 Sep 2020 11:37


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Darren Leeson wrote:

All good Graham.

Were all taking about the past. Lets make it interesting and look at one for the future. Im very keen to give my bitch Ballinderry Girl a chance in the breeding barn.

Firstly, where does she sit as far as inside the square or outside the square? Shes not a city winner, but multiple city placed, with a city class run home of 12.79. So, goes into the category of the earlier list I posted.

My opinion is shes outside the square. Because, everyone has banged on in here about city winners...the perfect type etc

Now she was a bit of a bludger, but not that hard core iffy type. She did have good genuine early speed when she wanted to use it. Ref her at Warragul against Feluki Donna a 29.50 Sand winner. Ballinderry Girl picked her up in 2 strides and once she caught her just jogged to the line. So by no means a lost cause as a brood.

The mating Im going to definitely do at some stage is West On Augie. Any comments? Is it a good mating, can it work, is it inside or outside the square, what am I looking to do in this mating.

Well all be able to come back and see how close to the mark I was...

CLICK HERE

Can't wait to see this breeding happen. Now that's what I call a brave "outside the square" mating.




Graham Moscow
Australia
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Posts 859
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Sep 2020 19:32


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West on Augie all good no negatives That I can see.
Your brood is in the square, nothing unorthodox just not a city winner. ( but close)
Thumbs up from Graham



Darren Leeson
Australia
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Posts 276
Dogs 14 / Races 50

21 Sep 2020 22:41


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Not many takers on looking into the future? So heres my reasoning...

West On Augie x Ballinderry Girl

Firstly, I like the idea of putting hard chasing early pace into Ballinderry Girl to correct her fault. As consistent lid pinging and running yourself into the ground is the most genuine of chase IMO. West On Augie was as good as there was for consistency in that aspect! So many 1111 in his races!

The duplication even triple shot of Spiral Nikita is huge in Ireland. Especially when reinforced with Little Diamond UK - Lenson Bocko, Music Toour Ears, Vancouver, Droopys Trapper, Blue East, Nadurra Ross, Antigua Rum etc

Line-breeding Rumble Spirit...Follow Through is extremely well proven both sides of the world. It also, reinforces what made Droopys Hope...the huge cross between Rumble Spirit and Little Diamond UK - Boylesports Xtra, Rio Quattro, Deerfield Music, Droopys Twirl and Droopys Hope etc

Hallucinate / Little Diamond UK - Aulton Jet, Frieda Las Vegas, Blue East

Having said that theyre the blatantly obvious and what anyone can see...so all a bonus to what Im really trying to do with this mating.

I.E replicate what made both her 1/2 sister Frieda Las Vegas (almost identical pattern). As well as Space Star and Tornado Tears.

The latter Space Star / Tornado Tears in a similar vein and pattern to how Golden Slipper winner Kiamichi was bred from a very cheap non-commercial no name sire (Sidestep) on the reverse cross of Bletchingly and Ammo Girl that produced Hall Of Fame Champion mare Emancipation.

Ballinderry Girl sired by Bekim Bale reverse crossed with a very large part of what made Space Star is carried in West On Augie!

Bekim Bale whose proving an excellent dam sire crossed with Fernando Bale produces 44% city winners to pups born. As opposed to #1 sire Fernando Bale produces 20% city winners to pups born to any random blood.

In keeping with the theme of the topic. I cant justify paying (Fernando Bale) $6600-8800 for a sire in general. When you can and has been shown in this topic breed champs away from those stud fees. Nonetheless the enormous cross between Fernando Bale and Bekim Bale is catered for in the sire line to put a large part of the make up of Tornado Tears in play in this pedigree.

How many saw all that?

Now to see if I can add to my stats?

15 (3 purchased /12 bred) litters in 20 years

City / Group class dogs Ive individually bred/purchased PM approx. $750,000


Sandro Bechini
Australia
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22 Sep 2020 01:09


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I think if you want to achieve all that I would wait until this bloke retired

CLICK HERE
You don't any better chase and high speed than what he's got


Darren Leeson
Australia
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Posts 276
Dogs 14 / Races 50

22 Sep 2020 02:25


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West On Augie is about as close as youll get to replicating Space Star and Tornado Tears to a Bekim Bale brood.

As much as Bekim Bale has shown to be an excellent dam sire:

Fernando Bale to all breeds has a 20% city winners to pups born. However, to a Bekim Bale brood it goes up to 44%

Flip side...

Barcia Bale to all breeds has a 16% city winners to pups born. However, to a Bekim Bale brood it drops by half to only 8%.

Now a generation back its too early to tell if the % will strengthen up? But, theyre not good to Barcia Bale at present for me to want to risk that aspect. Along with all the other inbreeding.

I reckon West On Augie looks pretty good for what I mentioned Im really trying to achieve in the mating.


Sandro Bechini
Australia
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Posts 18314
Dogs 14498 / Races 1818

22 Sep 2020 02:29


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I doubt 20% of all of Fernando's pups born have won in the city

And definitely Barcia Bale would not be that high either. The majority of his winners are under 500m.

The best that Brett Lee ever got to was 1 in 6 or 16.66% and that was using Razordot's stats who said it used to take him weeks to do

Have you done all that, because that is a major job to do? He used to look at the race record of each individual dog born.

If you are relying on Greyhound Recorder stats that say 20% for this year that is number of city wins divided by races they have contested.

That is still a commendable statistic but that is not what you are trying to apply.

938 pups raced in the city and have had 7443 starts for 1495 wins, the latter two numbers gives you the 20%.

Not all of the 938 pups have won, you would need to go and check the race record of every individual pup born, like Razordot used to do

Fernando would have over 2000 pups of racing age going back to Vol 64 of the Stud Book

Thats a big job Darren....


Darren Leeson
Australia
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Posts 276
Dogs 14 / Races 50

22 Sep 2020 02:40


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I went off the Recorder for the generic number. However the 44% and 8% are my long hours of research!

So the stats should be even better for my Fernando Bale cross and might be marginally better in support of your Barcia Bale theme?


Sandro Bechini
Australia
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Posts 18314
Dogs 14498 / Races 1818

22 Sep 2020 02:43


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Then you should do that mating if that is the case and forget about what we discussed.


Darren Leeson
Australia
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Posts 276
Dogs 14 / Races 50

22 Sep 2020 03:08


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I was going to do it 2nd mating. As would always honour a deal I made.

As weve spoken about My Bro Fabio is the obvious choice to Ballinderry Girl

If I do the overall stats of MBF x BG:-

My Bro Fabio crossed with...

Bekim Bale - 7/11 - 64% city winners to pups born
With Bekim Bale sire Bartrim Bale - 5/13 - 12/24 - 50%
With Droopys Hope - 2/6 - 14/30 - 45%

So on the stats the mating between My Bro Fabio and Ballinderry Girl is potentially stronger than it was to Droopys Hope.


Sandro Bechini
Australia
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Posts 18314
Dogs 14498 / Races 1818

22 Sep 2020 03:29


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I have had another good look at it the other night based on my own statistics and I am not that enraptured with it

You should just do the West On Augie mating seeing you have done all the research for it


Darren Leeson
Australia
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Posts 276
Dogs 14 / Races 50

22 Sep 2020 03:40


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All good mate. West On Augie it shall be.

Sharpen those knives everybody...lol



Graham Moscow
Australia
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Posts 859
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22 Sep 2020 04:58


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Ancestors loss 6 generations 18.25% (magic)
One other that adds value ( enhances) to this pedigree is Westmead Flight
Love your work Darren and Sandro. Graham a little lazy ?

CLICK HERE Good luck Darren I sense good results ( group ) a great future




Steven Martin
Australia
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Posts 7583
Dogs 180 / Races 66

22 Sep 2020 07:05


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Darren Leeson wrote:

Line-breeding Rumble Spirit...Follow Through is extremely well proven both sides of the world.


Interestingly, the cross between COSMIC RUMBLE to dams that are either by COLLISION (61) or COLLIDE (6) has been performed 67 times & only produced 9 Group Finalist, 2 of which won. Crackerjack Choc G2 & Black Hole Sun G3.
From 445 pups from these matings, I wouldn't call that stat a success. Proven yes, but a dud in my book.



Paul Dicks
Australia
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Posts 8872
Dogs 110 / Races 252

22 Sep 2020 07:52


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steven martin wrote:

Darren Leeson wrote:

Line-breeding Rumble Spirit...Follow Through is extremely well proven both sides of the world.


Interestingly, the cross between COSMIC RUMBLE to dams that are either by COLLISION (61) or COLLIDE (6) has been performed 67 times & only produced 9 Group Finalist, 2 of which won. Crackerjack Choc G2 & Black Hole Sun G3.
From 445 pups from these matings, I wouldn't call that stat a success. Proven yes, but a dud in my book.

You are sssooo "Inside the Square" Luddy.



Darren Leeson
Australia
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Posts 276
Dogs 14 / Races 50

22 Sep 2020 07:55


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Steves got the cleaver out already haha.

You never acknowledged the ...Follow Through. So I was referring to all combos worldwide. How do the full stats come out? My one is further removed. So youd expect the % to increase as it recedes into a pedigree.

But, if you read fully what I said...it was the bonus to the mating. Not what I am really trying to do I.E 2 sec line-breeding!! Im first and foremost trying to replicate the pedigree of Frieda Las Vegas and Space Star / Tornado Tears!! Can you see that Steve??

Thanks for the extra info Graham!


Matt James
Australia
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Posts 1431
Dogs 37 / Races 2

22 Sep 2020 08:56


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Sandro Bechini wrote:

I doubt 20% of all of Fernando's pups born have won in the city

And definitely Barcia Bale would not be that high either. The majority of his winners are under 500m.

The best that Brett Lee ever got to was 1 in 6 or 16.66% and that was using Razordot's stats who said it used to take him weeks to do

Have you done all that, because that is a major job to do? He used to look at the race record of each individual dog born.

If you are relying on Greyhound Recorder stats that say 20% for this year that is number of city wins divided by races they have contested.

That is still a commendable statistic but that is not what you are trying to apply.

938 pups raced in the city and have had 7443 starts for 1495 wins, the latter two numbers gives you the 20%.

Not all of the 938 pups have won, you would need to go and check the race record of every individual pup born, like Razordot used to do

Fernando would have over 2000 pups of racing age going back to Vol 64 of the Stud Book

Thats a big job Darren....

20% of Fernando Bale pups that make the track/make a city track win the race, that's not saying 20% of pups born win



Steven Martin
Australia
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Posts 7583
Dogs 180 / Races 66

22 Sep 2020 09:02


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Darren Leeson wrote:

Steves got the cleaver out already haha.


It's easy for one to jump the gun but Darren, no cleaver here. I just thought my statisics may interest you. I release the X is further back in your pedigree so hopefully it will produce better results, which I believe, should be the case. Put it this way, it couldn't get any worse.
I also posted my results so other members could make their own evaluation, should they be contemplating such a mating.


Darren Leeson
Australia
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Posts 276
Dogs 14 / Races 50

22 Sep 2020 09:43


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All good Steve! Im a lot different being 4 x 5

Would be interesting to see the stats on everything done 3 x 3. Do you have a great % on anything done 3 x 3.



Steven Martin
Australia
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Posts 7583
Dogs 180 / Races 66

22 Sep 2020 11:00


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Name your sire list (any amount) as the bitches are easy.

I'm off to watch a movie. Cheers ;-)

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