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No worries

Happy to disagree...no problems

The other thing I disagree with his the correlation to Fernando Bale

Sure they are both by USA sires but those sires have virtually nothing in common with each other apart from Dutch Bahama in the 4th and 5th line

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There are 5 generations in each of those grandsires that will affect the outcome of the mating of those pups despite the fact that there is Primo Uno, Head Honcho and Awesome Assassin in each of their damlines further removed

I think the real key to Perfect Marshall is having El Grand Senor sitting as his damsire as he provides a real source of pace and chase to the mating with Kinloch Brae

Those breeders looking for El Grand Senor blood and wantign to add an outcross such as Kinloch Brae in could be well rewarded

You mention Sennachie, you have isolate done instance where this may work but you have forgotten about the bottom half of Sennachie's pedigree

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He is line bred to Primo Uno and his dam is line bred to Hoppys Star and Black Shiraz/Big Ginger Boy, no Awesome Assassin

Do you not think his damline had an overall effect on the mating without purely looking at Kinloch Brae and Fernando Bale?

You have to look at he whole of the pedigree for any sire, bitch or mating to analyse its success, not pick out the elements that suit your argument

Relying on the red colours of Greyhound-Data and its % are flawed to the extreme, but again thats just my opinion...each to their own....

I don;t rely on the RED or the PURPLE of Greyohund Data

You should know that....and yes I have an opinion...but not the same as yours

Also Malfoy is inbred 3x3 to Amerigo Man and Walkabout Sid and his dam is inbred 3 x 3 to Nation Parade and Promises Free

Al Fresco is inbred 4 times to Temlee

Therefore, both dams in bred to key damlines and also carrying a son of Malawi's Prince

That may be the reasons for working but without looking at my own statistical correlations, my guess would be that the highly inbred nature of the two damlines behind the Kinloch Brae mating of each dam is a major factor

Then what are you trying to tell me?

Are you are saying that every mating between Fernando and Kinloch Brae is going to produce a super star based on their correlation, which is very far removed and is beyond 5 generations and totally dismissing any other strengths or weaknesses that the damlines of each respective mating is bringing to the table

It could be a very powerful cross statistically and I will need to check that, you may well be right with it, but you can't ignore the bottom line of the dams pedigree either

Ive always said its the whole pedigree and always will...so absolutely the dams play their part as well. Its something you mentioned here as well, but then at the same time said Kelsos Fusileer and Kinloch Brae have very little in common???

Id be surprised if Fernando Bale doesnt produce another top class dog to a Kinloch Brae bitch.

Anyway, hopefully we see some Perfect Marshall litters on the ground and we can see if any of those angles I mentioned at the start of this topic show up in any smart Perfect Marshall pups....

Going back 12 generations to find something that suits an argument for success is like trying to find a needle in a haystack and such a justification can be made for any mating, if that is the case

You can make any angle you want stick by going back that far.

Problem is, statistically speaking, your selection sample will be so wide that it won't mean anything and will lead to a higher incidence of error

Of course Fernando will produce more top class pups to Kinloch Brae bitches, it is now a self fulfilling prophecy as it will be tried many times to achieve another Sennachie...

Kudos to Kirin Corby who was only the 2nd person to put a Kinloch Brae bitch to Fernando Bale.

The first litter was to Sacramento Sal who produced a handy winner in Diego Fernando

His damline pedigree being fully Irish

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And I do hope Perfect Marshall gets a go, like so many other stud dogs that are shunned in favour of the the top 2 or three

It would just be reasonable for every new stud dog retired to get at least 20-30 litter over 2 seasons to see what they have to offer

But like the ones I mentioned earlier, to get 1 or 4 litters in a year really doesn't give any body any idea what they are capable of throwing, regardless of whatever breeding theory you want to follow

Anyway the rest I agree, we need more studs used than just the top 2 or 3!

Its not a matter of feeling comfortable Darren, that is actually an insult to my intelligence to write it off like that.
A bit disappointing mate coming from someone with your background.

I have done out cross over outcross mating with success in the past

I have never bred a litter for the sake of trying to extract a few thousand dollars out of people by going back 15 generations to back up my matings with a winner from 30 years ago and bred to sires that others wouldn't dream of, some successfully others not so.

If its not hybrid vigor to turn around 4 generations of inbreeding then what is it??

Its a proven genetic theory, not poppycock

Hybrid vigour is exactly what you say. I just say its very selective and methodical in the selection of which outcross sire you use. Dependent on distant genes you need to match up.

Were never going to agree on that part. So apologies if you took offence as I respect everyones beliefs! All I do is give my point of view and its up to the reader to rate it or bin it...

Darren your system of going back many generations is more flawed.

Picking out a dog that has been successful and following it back to get something that fits your beliefs is not the way forward to choose a stud dog. I believe any success including yours is on the capability of the brood bitch to throw.

All anyone needs is a good bitch from a great litter who is from a good bitch line and I don't mean more than 6 generation ago and there is a good chance she will throw good dogs. The stud dog to choose comes into it if your bitch is line bred, in bred or is an outcross. If your bitch is line bred or inbreed I would good to a complete outcross. If your bitch is an outcross you can make the decision whether to strengthen the line or outcross. The other choice you have is to go to the most popular sire at the time as this will help you sell the pups.

Sorry but I really think breeding is not as complicated as it is made out to be. I am sure those that came before us and before the internet and Greyhound-Data made much simpler choices so it surprises me that some of todays theories are built on selections many years ago long before DNA and long before any real research.

Again, you have plenty of before the fact angles Ive mentioned in this topic to see if Perfect Marshall can produce the quality of offspring the likes of Fernando Bale, Black Magic Opal and Fabregas have. As he carries much of what has made those top class sires successful...

At $1100 whod begrudge Perfect Marshall a chance at stud? Especially, if people cant afford Fernando Bale at $6600-8800? He offers breeders a nice Fernando Bale alternative!!

The way is simple breed your own, rear them, school them, train them and if they turn out as good as you think put them to stud or if a bitch breed off them. Liam Dowling has been doing this for years in Ireland as has his brother and father before him. Paul Wheeler is the best in Australia and his father was also good with breeding. Maybe we should be following these guys family tree.

Darren, we will have to agree to disagree on choosing a sire.

Anyway, the debate over Kelsos Fusileer and Kinloch Brae aside. Perfect Marshall will match up within 5 generations of Greyhound Data to satisfy more closer breeding beliefs. The examples Ive posted show that!

Im also no mug, the 15 litters (3 bought, 12 bred) Ive been involved in over the past 20 years have won $750,000 in prize money!

With the bitches we brought to Europe most went to an outcross and the results really were amazing.

So you can see why I go for the bitch line being far more important than the stud dog. By the way I do not consider myself as knowing a lot about breeding but I do consider myself a very lucky person. I will never know as much as you or Ryan or Paul or Liam but thats ok. It's all about enjoying all aspects of the sport.

Darren, no one is saying you are a mug I am simply saying I have a completely different view.