BUT -they usually contain a disagreement over this or that

CAN WE PLEASE use this thread to invite a ONE OFF posting from those that can share their knowledge regarding Colour inheritance WITHOUT any disagreements or mention of other peoples theories that you belive to be incorrect.

That way we can have a thread to look back on that can provide some knowledge -facts and also individual persons opinion (again WITHOUT reference to other people's differences on the subject)

So please:-
The facts as you know them
Your theories /thoughts and why you believe this.

THEN -others that are interested in Colour inheritance -can vist this thread to gain knowledge and look at theories.(Without the banter/disagreements etc)

Many Thanks

Keith

Black, Brindle and Fawn

One colour gene supplied by the sire and one colour gene supplied from the dam.

Black is dominant to both Brindle and Fawn
Brindle is dominant to Fawn

Therefore Fawn is recessive to both Black and Brindle.

For a Fawn pup to be born both parents must pass on a Fawn gene.

Blue is a modified Black (and you only know if a dog/bitch carries this modified gene by either it's colour ((if it is Blue then it carries this gene)), or if it has produced blue offspring), as for a Blue pup to be born both parents must pass on a Blue gene - same rule as Fawn. Blue is recessive to non-blue. This gene is also responsible for Blue variants (blue fawns, blue brindles) etc

Exactly the same rule applies for Parti colours (white and...... or ...... and white) - both parents have to pass on a parti colour gene for a dog/bitch to be white and ........ or ....... and white. The Parti coloured gene is recessive to Non Parti coloured genes.

Premier Fantasy for example is parti/parti as he is parti coloured himself (remembering that for a Parti coloured pup to be born he must have inherited parti/parti genes from his parents)and an example of a non parti/parti coloured hound is my very own Aero Ivy. Black in colour herself but has produced parti coloured offspring - so she is classed as non parti/parti.

Droopys Woods has only ever sired blacks and brindles - and siring the number of offspring he has, it is safe to say that he does not carry neither the blue or parti coloured genes!

Only by seeing what colours dogs have sired/whelped can we fully understand what colours to expect - although we can make various but accurate predictions!

Clear as mud!!

Prodominently white and black or black and white.

You would also expect balck pups too. It would of course depend on what other colour gene the bitch carries generally. But is seems that looking at PF's offspring he is genetically black/black as he has only sired black and parti coloured pups containing black. (there are two white and brindle and one fawn and white which are probably mis labelled) as from 1514 pups you would expect more of these colours.

He does not appear to carry the blue gene, nor brindle, nor fawn.

He does carry the Dun gene though!

Hope this helps!

Chris

The only exception would be as you say if the bitch carries a dun gene you may get some white and dun.

Hi Elaine, I'm not just young and extremely handsome!!! I have several other talents too!!! lol

LOL Chris don't hold back - tell all - tho maybe you're on the wrong site for that sort of thing.

Only thing to add to what Chris and Sue have said is that dun works just like blue - a recessive modifier of basic coat colours (so a dog needs to inherit the gene from both parents to be dun, dun brindle etc.) - and both blue and dun can work together to give blue dun, blue dun brindle etc.

Black, "B"
Brown, "b"
This webpage is part of a series on Dog Coat Color Genetics and was last updated on November 8, 2008 by Sheila Schmutz

The gene at the B locus in dogs is Tyrosinase Related Protein 1 (TYRP1). This same gene causes brown in several other species, such as mice, cattle and cats. Brown is a type of eumelanin pigment.

Most Large Munsterlanders are black and white but occasionally a brown and white one is born. All Small Munsterlanders are brown and white.

The reason that the German Longhair, who is E/E, is always brown or brown and white and the Large Munsterlander, who is also E/E is usually black and white, is due to TYRP1. The black allele B is dominant to the brown alleles (bS,bd, bc). There are actually 3 common mutations and perhaps additional rare ones that occur in this gene which result in brown instead of black eumelanin production.

The nose leather, pads, and eye rims are also affected by this gene. They are black if a B allele is present but brown if not. Hence all brown dogs have a brown nose and all black dogs have a black nose but red, fawn, sable, white, etc. dogs could have either black or brown noses.

In dogs which are yellow to red (e/e at MC1r), TYRP1 mutations affect the nose and pad coloration, changing it from black to brown. Yellow lab puppies can have black or brown noses, but Vizslas always have brown or flesh colored noses.

All dogs which have brown coat color have at least one E or Em allele so that eumelanin is produced. The German Longhair, above, is homozygous for one of the common mutations. Her genotype is bdbd. The brown Large Munsterlander, above, is homozygous for the other with a genotype of bsbs. The Newfoundland, at the right, is homozygous for the rarer brown mutation. His genotype is E/E, bc/bc. Dogs which are heterozygotes of any combination of these mutations would also be brown, i.e. bs/bd

.
Although Sabastian, the Newfoundland appears to be a darker shade of brown than the other two dogs, we do not think that it is due to which b alleles he has. We have studied a litter of Cheasapeake Bay Retrievers (whelped by Macy below) who had different shades of brown, but all had the same genotype of b alleles.

Smaller breeds such as the American Cocker Spaniel can also be brown.

In some breeds, such as Doberman Pinschers and Australian Shepherd the brown dogs are called red. See the chart below for the various terms used for brown by various breeds. The miniature Aussie at the right, is brown-and-tan.

The typical Weimaraner is also brown, but a dilute brown. See more about dilute due to MLPH mutations on another page.

Breeds in which brown dogs of with TYRP1 DNA changes have been detected

The list of alleles may not be complete because relatively few dogs have been tested for some breeds

Breed Term for Brown Alleles Present
Australian Shepherd red bs, bd
Border Colllie Brown bs, bd, bc
Chesapeake Bay Retriever Brown, Sedge, Deadgrass bs, bc
Chinese Shar-Pei Chocolate, Lilac bs, bc
Cocker Spaniel Brown, Liver bs, bd, bc
Dachshund Chocolate bs, bd
Dalmatian Liver bs, bd, bc
Doberman Pinscher Red bd
English Setter Liver Belton bs
English Springer Spaniel Liver bs, bd
English Pointer Liver bs, bd
Field Spaniel Liver bs, bd, bc
Flatcoated Retriever Liver bs, bd
French Brittany Spaniel Liver bs, bd
German Shorthaired Pointer Liver bs, bd, bc
German Longhaired Pointer Liver bs, bd, bc
German Wirehaired Pointer Liver bs, bd, bc
Griffon Liver bs, bd
Italian Greyhound Isabella, Chocolate bc
Labrador Retriever Chocolate bs, bd, bc
Large Munsterlander Brown bs, bd, bc
Newfoundland Brown bs, bd, bc
Poodle Brown, Cafe-au-lait bs, bd, bc
Portuguese Water Dog Brown bs, bd
Pudelpointer Liver bs, bd, bc
Small Munsterlander Brown bs, bc
Weimaraner Mouse-gray bs, bd, bc

It is interesting to note that brown is common in bird dogs but not too common in other breeds. More than one of the brown mutations were found in the short-haired breeds: Labrador Retriever, German Shorthair, Vizsla, in the wire-haired breeds: German Wirehair, Pudelpointer, Griffon and in the long-haired breeds: German Longhair, Large Munsterlander, Small Munsterlander, Field Spaniel. Many historical records of hunting dog breeds suggest that the hair types were differentiated about 1100, even though the breeds may not have separated for almost another 100 years. Therefore it would seem that these mutations may have occurred before 1100, but certainly before 1850. Brown was probably selected by breeders for its camouflage appearance in hunting breeds and therefore proliferated there.

The painting entitled "Meeting of the Gun Dogs Society" painted by George Earl in 1904 and illustrates that black, brown, and red dogs all occurred by then. I thank Gabriel Palacio of Spain for correctly identifiying this painting.

LOL - I know enough about it not to venture into that question.

Without doing a lot of research I could guess that all the offspring will be chocolate/dun/red coloured, but it isn't necessarily that simple. Different colour genes operate in different breeds of dog - for example, I think some breed have a recessive black and a dominant yellow - because the expression of these colours can be controlled at other genetic locations in some breeds. So not all dog breeds obey the same colour inheritance rules as greyhounds.
Cheers,
Tom

Click on the picture then click on the little orange thing right side bottom to enlarge.

What do you mean please?

Funny you should mention that as I have just whelped (not me personally of course), 10 pups (sadly 2 died), but three of them are/were black and white and all 3 had more or less identical markings. White strip in between the eyes, white tipped tail, white socks, and a patch on the back of the neck. CLICK HERE - You can just about see two of them on the pic and the other one is under mum wanting a feed!

Its even more bizarre as both parents are black, but both carry the parti colour gene.

A good friend of mine says "There may be a gene that influences that colour pattern, but it may also be the result of a combination of genes - such as a single particolour gene and another gene for that Frightful Flash colour pattern. You could probably work it out by looking at the results of various breeding combinations - the problem is sometimes those coloured dogs are still just listed as black, and some dogs listed as black and white only have a bit of white on their chest and toes - so the lack of accurate information makes it hard to work out"

We would need to see pics of them all to work it out properly.

Does this help any?