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Yes sort of, so to have white markings they should have a parti colour gene :) That makes sense as Throps sire is parti, Premier Fantasy and Throp also has spotty skin under the white bits like him. I also adopted Throp's brother, Nine Ball Hector and they look pretty similar, tho thankfully not identical lol (pictures under my profile)
I have noticed when i've come across dogs that look similar to Throp they often have either Frightful Flash or Top Honcho in their pedigree but not really understanding genetics thought it was perhaps just a coincidence seeing as both sired a fair few.
Your pups are cute, bless mum looks a bit sleepy in that pic. Look forward to seeing more pictures as they grow up.
Chris Hart United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 2469 Dogs 5 / Races 0 12 May 2009 06:30
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Hi Jenny,
Alot of dogs that are defined as black actually have white feet and a white blaze (under their neck/chest), and the tips of their chins/nose. This is generally deemed as ok and means that dogs of this colour are still classed as black. It is only other/extra markings that define them as parti coloured.
Thanks Jenny - email me at [email protected] and all send you some up to date pics.
MAKING SENSE OF COAT COLOUR Some facts are known about coat colour and patterns, hair colour is determined by specialized pigment cells called melanocytes, which are found in the basal or innermost layer of the epidermis. It is believed that whether or not melanocytes produces melanin depends on the presence or absence of chemical activators and inhibitors, although it is not yet known what those chemicals are, each observed coat pattern is thought to reflect an underlying chemical prepattern . The prepattern if it exists should reside somewhere in or just under the epidermis, the melanocytes are thought to have the role of reading out the pattern, in white coated dogs the colour can be evident in one or two ways. It may be the result of extreme dilution, or it may be the result of the absence of pigment cell. When inhibitors come into play distinct patches of fully pigmented coat are commonly found. These commonly occur around the eyes and ears but such distinct patches can also be found on the body. This is no more evident than in white dogs with brindle patches, these patches are usually very crisp in colour and markings. There has been much scientific controversy over what causes this mechanism but it seems likely that pigment cells initially cover the whole of the body. There is then a period before birth when most pigment cells in the white areas do not survive. There can also be considerable right left asymmetry. for example, there may be a pigment patch around an eye or ear on one side of the head but not on the other. At least two genes are known to cause white by absence or dilution. One is the dominant Merle (M) gene, commonly carried in the heterozygous (single) dose. The second gene that reduces the number of pigment cells to cause a white coat is the recessive (s) gene . The gene designated as E is responsible for emuelanin production. The absence of the dominant form of B (brown) will change the black colour of eumuelanin into brown but it will not change coat colour. The A gene is a bit more complicated, this gene controls where and how two pigments are produced on the body or even on the individual hair. There are other groups of genes responsible for coat colouration.They are- C (albino),- D ( blue Dilution) G (grayling), M (merle), R (roaming), S (white spotting), T (ticking) and K (dominant black)
Keith Howells United Kingdom
Posts 1014 Dogs 1 / Races 0 12 May 2009 20:06
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Derek -if I am honest I find the above a hard read...anyway of making it an easier read ?
Chris Hart United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 2469 Dogs 5 / Races 0 13 May 2009 08:02
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scanned over it and ita a bit in depth for the "novice" like myself....
Leeanne Cairns United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 765 Dogs 14 / Races 0 13 May 2009 12:13
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I dont really get all this, i have mated my black bitch with a blue dog, what sort of coloured pups should i expect mineola farloe x harrys magic.
regards leeanne
Sue Burley Australia (Verified User) Posts 5559 Dogs 10310 / Races 14781 13 May 2009 13:02
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Hi Leeanne, I've tried to make this easy to understand but reading through it, it still sounds complicated lol. Hope it helps.
Harrys Magic is a black bitch, her sire is black and her dam is brindle so that tells us that the basic colour gene she inherited from her sire is black BUT her dam carries one brindle gene and one fawn gene and we will not know which one of these Harrys Magic inherited until she has pups.
So her two basic colour genes are:-
Black/brindle OR Black/fawn
Both her sire Larkhill Jo and dam Minnies Amada carry one gene for white and one gene for blue and there is a 50% chance that each passed either or both of these on to Harrys Magic.
Mineola Farloe is a blue dog who has produced fawn puppies. This tells us his two basic colour genes are black and fawn and that he also carries two genes for blue. Of his 237 offspring listed on GD only one is listed as white and brindle and I would hazard a guess and say that dog is actually brindle and white and that Mineola Farloe does not carry a gene for white. So if Harrys Magic inherited a white gene from one of her parents she will still not produce white pups to Mineola Farloe as to be born white and a pup must inherit two white genes and Mineola Farloe does not have one to give.
If Harrys Magic does carry one blue gene, and there is a good chance she does, she will pass that gene (on average) to 50% of her pups, as Mineola Farloe carries two blue genes, he will pass a blue gene on to 100% of his pups, therefore you would expect any black to be diluted to blue, any brindle to be diluted to blue brindle and any fawn diluted to blue fawn in half of her litter.
So in summary, these are the possible colours of her pups depending on whether Harrys Magic inherited a brindle or a fawn gene from her mother:-
Black Blue Brindle Blue Brindle
OR
Black Blue Fawn Blue Fawn
If Harrys Magic didn't inherit a blue gene from either her sire or dam the pups will be:-
Black and Brindle
OR
Black and Fawn
Keith Howells United Kingdom
Posts 1014 Dogs 1 / Races 0 13 May 2009 16:16
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Leeanne/Sue -this one will be interesting to revist when the pups are born -as you (Sue) have done a very good job explaining this.
Great post Sue
Keith Howells United Kingdom
Posts 1014 Dogs 1 / Races 0 13 Oct 2009 16:19
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Leeanne /Sue - what was the outcome?
Maureen Day United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1831 Dogs 23 / Races 2 13 Oct 2009 16:35
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keith Howells wrote:
Leeanne /Sue - what was the outcome?
Keith,
She had 5d (I think 3bk, 1be and 1bd) and 3b (2bk and 1 be) but sadly she lost all 5 dogs.
Does it make a difference when choosing for instance if the litter is three black and three fawn.By this i mean going back over then fawn influence dogs in pedigree,would they have their traits?
Chris Hart United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 2469 Dogs 5 / Races 0 13 Oct 2009 17:12
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It's somrthing that I have though about before but I'm not sure if there is enough evidence to support what we are thinking as there is a male and female influence to consider with only a few varied colours to compare to. If for example (talking silly now), all of a certian type of colour was faster/better than the rest then in time all other colours would be bred out and I'm sure someone by now would have sussed it and it be noticed or published for us all to follow. I'm sure that there are instances with some where by a certian colour appears to be cropping up as being better than others but would it be chance/probability/luck etc I guess it's far too hard to say...................
paul brenkley wrote:
Thanks Chris
Does it make a difference when choosing for instance if the litter is three black and three fawn.By this i mean going back over then fawn influence dogs in pedigree,would they have their traits?
Dams line has alot of fawn influence,but most of vivs off spring are blk,should picking from this litter be influenced by colour or should i use colour to influence me....if you know what i mean
Thanks Paul
Chris Hart United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 2469 Dogs 5 / Races 0 13 Oct 2009 17:45
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Nice mating!!
If you compare blacks to fawns as a whole then blacks will always "win" as black is the most dominant colour and fawn the most recessive. Therefore the numbers that we are comparing are massively one sided, and so black offspring always seem to be do better - It's just a numbers game.
I'd be tempted to go with your gut feeling and pick the one that is most forward out of the litter and disregard colour. Or keep them all and then there will be no colour issue!! haha
Mark Glennerster United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 3208 Dogs 0 / Races 0 13 Oct 2009 18:31
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Chris, You are so right when it comes to registering colours in the stud book,breeders are required to mark up the pups and submit the details to the stud book, sometimes these details are transfered for instance as Bk/W in the case of some white markings on the pup, but not all stud book staff are that diligent and sometimes the pup is Bk. only.
Sure genetics play an important part in identify colours in the breed but until recently the actual importance of genetics has not been taken seriously enough.
One colour gene supplied by the sire and one colour gene supplied from the dam.
Black is dominant to both Brindle and Fawn Brindle is dominant to Fawn
Therefore Fawn is recessive to both Black and Brindle.
For a Fawn pup to be born both parents must pass on a Fawn gene.
Blue is a modified Black (and you only know if a dog/bitch carries this modified gene by either it's colour ((if it is Blue then it carries this gene)), or if it has produced blue offspring), as for a Blue pup to be born both parents must pass on a Blue gene - same rule as Fawn. Blue is recessive to non-blue. This gene is also responsible for Blue variants (blue fawns, blue brindles) etc
Exactly the same rule applies for Parti colours (white and...... or ...... and white) - both parents have to pass on a parti colour gene for a dog/bitch to be white and ........ or ....... and white. The Parti coloured gene is recessive to Non Parti coloured genes.
Premier Fantasy for example is parti/parti as he is parti coloured himself (remembering that for a Parti coloured pup to be born he must have inherited parti/parti genes from his parents)and an example of a non parti/parti coloured hound is my very own Aero Ivy. Black in colour herself but has produced parti coloured offspring - so she is classed as non parti/parti.
Droopys Woods has only ever sired blacks and brindles - and siring the number of offspring he has, it is safe to say that he does not carry neither the blue or parti coloured genes!
Only by seeing what colours dogs have sired/whelped can we fully understand what colours to expect - although we can make various but accurate predictions!
Clear as mud!!
chris u done this for me 4 years ago and u were spot on I want you to try it again please with my blue bitch vikkis baby blue x droopys luisao he has sired a litter or 2 and there is a pic of them up for sale now I think they r blacks and brindles. Go for it and give me ur prediction
Cheers ur friend leeanne
Keith Howells United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 92 Dogs 11 / Races 0 25 Jul 2013 20:52
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
