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Brett Gatt Australia (Verified User) Posts 132 Dogs 2 / Races 1 17 Jan 2017 06:50
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My one's don't like dogs outside them. Also track wide but can run above average times when get all there own way. Mum was a mad railer so am confident bad traits come from dad.
Nathan Bendeich wrote:
Just after Poeple with personal experiences with spring gun pups and racers ! I purchased one after a few reasons ..... I must have seen a 1/2 a dozen spring guns being broken in after I had seen a dozen of other pups sires being broken in .... honestly it was chalk and cheese ! The dozen of mixed sires were either unsure ,qiuet or skittish or just straight out a pain in the arse to be around !! Then the spring guns came through and honestly it has changed my previous attitude towards him ! Might I add all these were at same stage in breakers .... ! These guys walked in had zero hesitation, bit full on , but in no way crazy !!! Which was what I was lead to believe , and when box work came they passed with flying colours ! Silent still and bang plenty of aggression and chase and bite on ,after lids were opened ! I walked away and thought in today's climate and regs ! This guys offspring are what your after ! My thinking was as I like the potential breeding side element to it , was as they had plenty of aggression and chase , if you could find a pretty level headed, or the qiueter bitch in the litter , obviously with dam depth and success , this would put you in good shape for future litters ! Is it me or does anyone else have insight as to whether spring gun would be a potential great brood sire ? From watching his offspring in race mode , they look to have more strength quality then early speed or 400 mtr runners ! Another good brood quality to possess I believe! So with all this in mind I chose the quietest largest bitch that kept to herself ! I ignored the loudest more forward bitches that wouldn't stop chewing my feet and fingers ! Can I have other people's views on this sires offspring and their personal views also please ,cheers in advance
Ronald George Hunter Australia (Verified User) Posts 4316 Dogs 0 / Races 0 17 Jan 2017 07:29
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Through our experience, they are definate chasers, although can be over the top. Our litter is mixed, some rail others race wider. There no world beaters, but hey they chase fantasticly. I picked the quitest dog from the litter as a pup, and he's turned out the noisiest and over the top, but when he draws inside in a earlier race he flies. I guess to answer your queery, the bitches will throw on just because of their fantastic chase. Apparently Spring Gun was an exciteable commodity, but could he run. They will chase just on the noise alone.
Jodie Lord Australia (Verified User) Posts 92 Dogs 66 / Races 0 17 Jan 2017 07:54
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Bread and butter sire Nathan they are over the top chase there guts out spring gun has had his chance to throw top class stock with well over 200 bitches what you see is what you get bread and butter dogs.
Michael Barry Australia (Verified User) Posts 7402 Dogs 26 / Races 9 17 Jan 2017 08:00
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brett gatt wrote:
My one's don't like dogs outside them. Also track wide but can run above average times when get all there own way. Mum was a mad railer so am confident bad traits come from dad.
Nathan Bendeich wrote:
Just after Poeple with personal experiences with spring gun pups and racers ! I purchased one after a few reasons ..... I must have seen a 1/2 a dozen spring guns being broken in after I had seen a dozen of other pups sires being broken in .... honestly it was chalk and cheese ! The dozen of mixed sires were either unsure ,qiuet or skittish or just straight out a pain in the arse to be around !! Then the spring guns came through and honestly it has changed my previous attitude towards him ! Might I add all these were at same stage in breakers .... ! These guys walked in had zero hesitation, bit full on , but in no way crazy !!! Which was what I was lead to believe , and when box work came they passed with flying colours ! Silent still and bang plenty of aggression and chase and bite on ,after lids were opened ! I walked away and thought in today's climate and regs ! This guys offspring are what your after ! My thinking was as I like the potential breeding side element to it , was as they had plenty of aggression and chase , if you could find a pretty level headed, or the qiueter bitch in the litter , obviously with dam depth and success , this would put you in good shape for future litters ! Is it me or does anyone else have insight as to whether spring gun would be a potential great brood sire ? From watching his offspring in race mode , they look to have more strength quality then early speed or 400 mtr runners ! Another good brood quality to possess I believe! So with all this in mind I chose the quietest largest bitch that kept to herself ! I ignored the loudest more forward bitches that wouldn't stop chewing my feet and fingers ! Can I have other people's views on this sires offspring and their personal views also please ,cheers in advance
after a fairly lengthy investigation with breakers , we decided to use him ,, even though he was a racer we never paid much attention too ,,
and it seemed most of his offspring raced in nsw ,,
the breakers we spoke to all said the same cant fault them at breakin,,, and thats important these days
so we went ahead and bred this litter , CLICK HERE the result was 12 pups now 4 months old
we offered 6 for sale 5 were sold in a few days then the inquiry dried up and i took them off data ,
so at this stage they are quite fierce , but most pups are at that age ,
in a few weeks we will course them behind the race car see how they chase ,, so far so good time will tell the rest of the story
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1223 Dogs 13 / Races 0 17 Jan 2017 08:23
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Thanku for responses , I love it ! In 2022 , if I haven't gone bust in trying to master my harem of hairy broods ! On this thread I will admit and succumb to admitting my false beliefs in what I believe could be a genuine brood sire ..... spring gun .... fair well my friend for now , I will revisit in.....22 !
Ps I've always preferred margarine
Andrew Varasdi Australia (Verified User) Posts 1287 Dogs 2 / Races 11 17 Jan 2017 08:39
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That's funny ...... I always suspects as much.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 17 Jan 2017 18:38
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What's even funnier is that in the past on this site, sires like Collision, Big Daddy Cool and Go Wild Teddy were also considered to be the 'dreaded' bread and butter sires' until they started throwing Group dogs later in their careers
It's funny what goes around, comes around
I was always told that dogs who throw good chasers and plenty of winners were the sires to use
The good dogs will come as breeders learn which bitches to how to breed to a sire
The only way a breeder will know this is by the sire getting numbers and picking out the eyes of the progeny and examining their pedigree's and other attributes of the bitch if they can get them
With the downturn in breeding fewer sires than ever before will get the opportunity to show what they can really throw
You will find many breeders will do what Mick has done and use sires they know, or are told will throw the chase into their progeny, even if some of them can be hyper active
There is a reason why Magic Sprite and Barcia Bale are popular, they generally throw chase and early pace into their progeny. Even if they have 200 bitches a season and most of them are winning @ 400m
In the meantime, bread and butter sires pay the bills with their progeny, whilst you can go broke using the sire that throws one freak out of 300 and very few other winners or a lot of non-chasers.....then I won't go into the welfare issues/problems that those kind of pups can bring
It's ok if you have the $$$$ to support the sires who can throw a freak and you have a way of escaping your welfare obligations with the nonnies
But in this environment where a bad litter can spell the death knell of a broodbitch's career breeders will use the safer option
With the pup market also going downhill, you need to race your dogs as you can't even give them away these days.
You need chasers!!
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1223 Dogs 13 / Races 0 17 Jan 2017 18:47
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
What's even funnier is that in the past on this site, sires like Collision, Big Daddy Cool and Go Wild Teddy were also considered to be the 'dreaded' bread and butter sires' until they started throwing Group dogs later in their careers
It's funny what goes around, comes around
I was always told that dogs who throw good chasers and plenty of winners were the sires to use
The good dogs will come as breeders learn which bitches to how to breed to a sire
The only way a breeder will know this is by the sire getting numbers and picking out the eyes of the progeny and examining their pedigree's and other attributes of the bitch if they can get them
In the meantime, bread and butter sires pay the bills with their progeny, whilst you can go broke using the sire that throws one freak out of 300 and very few other winners
With the pup market going downhill, you need to race your dogs, you need chasers
Thanks for your time Sandro
This was my angle of thought through a potential current runner and then a future prospect through a bitch ..... Although I do understand and see where some are coming from in terms of high grade runners at a minimal at present given his numbers ! BUT ... like u said , it isn't this quality that I'm after ! I'm chasing a trait that bombastic seems to have thrown to bit chilli , brood sire ! And chase in the line Thx again , well worded
Andrew Varasdi Australia (Verified User) Posts 1287 Dogs 2 / Races 11 17 Jan 2017 20:26
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sandro agree with pretty much everything you say. and it is not just about chase in the short term but genuine chase from day one to the end of the racing career.
But this is the big point and what concerns me most from breeders. It is why I am so interested in the views of people like ryan and yourself.
the stud pool is getting bigger, the number of litters smaller and trying to evaluate who is successful, what's genuinely working as a trend not just a one or two off and so on.
really tough to know but I guess it will work itself out.
Sandro Bechini wrote:
The good dogs will come as breeders learn which bitches to how to breed to a sire
The only way a breeder will know this is by the sire getting numbers and picking out the eyes of the progeny and examining their pedigree's and other attributes of the bitch if they can get them
With the downturn in breeding fewer sires than ever before will get the opportunity to show what they can really throw
Johnathon Campbell Australia (Verified User) Posts 4635 Dogs 5 / Races 2 17 Jan 2017 21:00
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I had a bitch in the final of the Peel cup last night and of the eight runners to get into that final 5 were Barcia blaes. The first three over the line were Barcia bales running very slick times.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 17 Jan 2017 21:39
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andrew varasdi wrote:
sandro agree with pretty much everything you say. and it is not just about chase in the short term but genuine chase from day one to the end of the racing career.
But this is the big point and what concerns me most from breeders. It is why I am so interested in the views of people like ryan and yourself.
the stud pool is getting bigger, the number of litters smaller and trying to evaluate who is successful, what's genuinely working as a trend not just a one or two off and so on.
really tough to know but I guess it will work itself out.
Sandro Bechini wrote:
The good dogs will come as breeders learn which bitches to how to breed to a sire
The only way a breeder will know this is by the sire getting numbers and picking out the eyes of the progeny and examining their pedigree's and other attributes of the bitch if they can get them
With the downturn in breeding fewer sires than ever before will get the opportunity to show what they can really throw
Andrew
As you can see on this site, when someone asks an opinion for their brood, they will get 20 sire options
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.
Everyone has their own reasons for using a particular sire, right or wrong.
But I think going forward, most will be looking at post Live Baiting and Steroid sires who chased hard or sires proven to throw hard chasers
Katie Opetaia Australia (Verified User) Posts 276 Dogs 1 / Races 0 27 May 2017 05:58
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Congratulations to connections with Maja Mahi Mahi's fabulous win in the Group 1 Sapphire Crown this week rounding out a great past few weeks for Spring Gun with Neeky's Way winning the Group 2 Queensland Futurity and Leo's Gift winning the Group 2 Warrnambool Cup. Must also congratulate Gun McBain on recently winning his 60th race outstanding achievement for all concerned.
Katie Opetaia Australia (Verified User) Posts 276 Dogs 1 / Races 0 16 Oct 2018 00:19
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Best of luck to Big Butters and the Crouch family in the Million dollar race this week. What a wonderful bitch she is, very versatile.
Grant Thomas Australia (Verified User) Posts 11447 Dogs 64 / Races 20 17 Oct 2018 16:06
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
What's even funnier is that in the past on this site, sires like Collision, Big Daddy Cool and Go Wild Teddy were also considered to be the 'dreaded' bread and butter sires' until they started throwing Group dogs later in their careers
It's funny what goes around, comes around
I was always told that dogs who throw good chasers and plenty of winners were the sires to use
The good dogs will come as breeders learn which bitches to how to breed to a sire
The only way a breeder will know this is by the sire getting numbers and picking out the eyes of the progeny and examining their pedigree's and other attributes of the bitch if they can get them
With the downturn in breeding fewer sires than ever before will get the opportunity to show what they can really throw
You will find many breeders will do what Mick has done and use sires they know, or are told will throw the chase into their progeny, even if some of them can be hyper active
There is a reason why Magic Sprite and Barcia Bale are popular, they generally throw chase and early pace into their progeny. Even if they have 200 bitches a season and most of them are winning @ 400m
In the meantime, bread and butter sires pay the bills with their progeny, whilst you can go broke using the sire that throws one freak out of 300 and very few other winners or a lot of non-chasers.....then I won't go into the welfare issues/problems that those kind of pups can bring
It's ok if you have the $$$$ to support the sires who can throw a freak and you have a way of escaping your welfare obligations with the nonnies
But in this environment where a bad litter can spell the death knell of a broodbitch's career breeders will use the safer option
With the pup market also going downhill, you need to race your dogs as you can't even give them away these days.
You need chasers!!
This 'downsizing' of litters being bred...with fewer sires used, could it be detrimental to the breed...???
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 17 Oct 2018 19:39
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Grant
The gene pool is getting smaller and smaller
With breeding at 50% of what it was, its time the authorities who are so called in charge of fostering the breed, fast tracked a policy to reduce the number of services any one stud can have per annum, rather than per quarter
Reason:
Instead of 216 per annum (54 per quarter) shouldn't be more than say 140 per annum
From the last Stud Book available Vol 65 there were 1270 litters born in Australia
398 litters in 4 sires or 31.33% of all litters/pups born attributed to 4 sires
Fernando Bale only had 49 in that season
In the next season, Vol 66 (17/18 whelps) FB is likely to go close to the 200 mark this year and Barcia will probably maintain his numbers
Project Forward
FB 200 BB 160 DDO 70 Fabregas 80
( I left KB out as I am assuming his semen stocks may be reducing)
Say with a 10% increase in breeding there is 1400 litters
That's 510 litters between 4 sires
Projection is 34.69% of all litters/pups being centered around 4 sires
Some would argue that these are the best sires and positive for the breed but I think in time it will be detrimental as we start to lose various damlines from the use of different sires
I believe the gene pool will become more diminished if we continue in this fashion
Perhaps it is a transitional phase whilst these sires are alive and well and once everyone has used them they will start diversifying again
But it concerns me to see 3 dogs in every race by the same sires
I still remember the days when most dogs were closely in bred to Temlee, he was that dominant
A restriction of services may see a further increase in price for these popular sires but IMHO, its a small price to pay for the stability of the breed and any price increase would increase the opportunity for newer sires & imported sires to be used more frequently and thus lead to a stronger industry over all
Apologize if any particular stud masters/stud owners have been offended but its a general view of the industry as I see it
Steven Martin Australia (Verified User) Posts 7681 Dogs 180 / Races 66 18 Oct 2018 00:36
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Couldn't agree more Sandro. I've been saying the exact same thing since we were hung out to dry.
I to don't want to offend owners or studmasters from potentially earning a quid, but for the betterment of the sport due to the decreasing numbers of whelpings, a new annual capping on sire should be urgently discussed.
As it stands this year and without naming any sires, up to the end of July, 1 sire has served 15.05% of all matings this year & another 14.67%. That's 30% of all matings.
Maybe somebody (with a bit more time) could start a new topic as this threads about Spring Gun.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
