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Cosmic Rumble is not the topic.

I have no argument re: Fabregas, he is the new flavour of the month, Barcia Bale was the in kid before him...doesn't mean Shane's comment is wrong (or spiteful). It's an observation & one based on facts. And getting a few select bitches in pup now is not reinventing the wheel either.

Give me his damline, I'd love to have it & I'd love to have Fabregas. Maybe Shane is copping the grief because he's made an observation that doesn't fit the rosy picture that you want it to be?
All dogs have their flaws, not many to be seen with Fabregas...but a factual observation has been made & you all wanna look at it as mud slinging.

Love him or hate him but in my experience you won't meet a more honest person than Shane.

I'll reiterate, there is no breeding experts. Some just know when to separate the wheat from the chaff. No rose coloured glasses on those people.

Glenn

Firstly, in the spirit of the discussion I brought up a counterfact regarding dominant sire lines vs dominant dam lines (a point actually brought up by Shane himself). This was purely for discussion purposes and it was merely to highlight that some sire lines fail to dominate as sires as much as some dam lines fail to dominate in producing great sires.

Secondly, no one here is trying to paint any picture for Fabregas or throw mud at Shane's suggestions. Everyone's views are welcomed to be debated.

Thirdly, Shane is a big boy and doesn't need protection. He knows how to argue a point. Let him argue it if he has an issue. His honesty in his debates has never been in question.

However, anywhere where it gets personal I will edit the posts regardless on who's side of the fence it is

So let's debate and not get personal.

Leave Cosmic Rumble to his own thread (how anyone can bag him is beyond me)... Fabregas, champion racer, champion sire in the making, champion owner/breeder...what a legend! I won't hear of anyone suggesting anything otherwise.

Is that what your looking for?

No deal unless you don't dribble on about mud slinging and leave the personal stuff out of it.

glenn hatton wrote:

Leave Cosmic Rumble to his own thread (how anyone can bag him is beyond me)...

Who is bagging him? Spiral Nikita line is not a dominant sire line. But it could change with Cosmic Rumble.

glenn hatton wrote:

Fabregas, champion racer, champion sire in the making, champion owner/breeder...what a legend! I won't hear of anyone suggesting anything otherwise. Is that what your looking for?

No, not at all. Where have I disagreed with Shane on what the damline has produced so far as sires?

100% agree

Point 1

joshua nelson wrote:

Cosmic rumble will not reach the heights I believe everyone thinks he will reach.

Point 2

Sandro Bechini wrote:

As far as the ' damline doesn't throw stud dogs issue' is concerned then explain to me why 2 stud dogs from the same litter show where one is a raging success and the other one a failure OR that they throw different types of dog? We have all seen it in the past, Dusty Rapid v Dusty Trail, Waverly Supreme v Laurdella Fun, Token Prince v Awesome McLaren, Brett Lee v Trendy Leigh etc I believe each stud dog has to be judged on its merits on what he is capable of transmitting to the bitches he serves e.g. Mogambo comes from a line that is renowned for damlines. Whilst he is not the leading stud dog he has shown he is capable of throwing good Group Class dogs That's why I put little faith in those type of broadside comments. I will be prepared to gamble on Fabregas as a stud dog

Point 3 (be sure to read the 5th paragraph)

....satisfied??

Certainly he hasn't produced bucketloads of stars but has he had the opportunity to do so is maybe something that needs to be asked as well?

I don't think that problem will be one that Fabregas has to worry about when he goes to stud, he'll have plenty of opportunity with bitches which will at least put him one step in front of his predecessors from this line.

Some very nice combinations with Fabregas there John, in fact some would regard the fact that Fabregas has the outcross Larkhill Jo as his damsire as the weak point in his make up as a stud dog, but in the case of a Westmead hawk bitch it's just about perfect.

And if you look back far enough in Fabregas damline you'll see that Benjamin Lass is a sister to Osti Too, so Gun Law Osti has come from that damline.

My view on damlines producing stud dogs it that they don't until they do and then they have, then they may again or they may not. Each generation is a new experiment in that regard - so those who think they know the answer in advance - don't.

haha, gold. Pretty accurate too I think Tom!

Spot on Tom

The best any studmaster can do for their stud dog is get the best bitches they can for him and then let the pups do the talking

I think at times we get a bit too caught up in our breeding thoughts, what about this what about that...it is not an exact science and at the end of the day Mother Nature also has a big say, and we know she can be fickle at times

When i look for a potential stud i make sure that he comes from a winner producing line....not whether its a great sire line or dam line, i focus on racing results, not so much champions produced. Then more imporatantly i look at the dog himself, what is he going to bring to the table ? WHat are his racing traits, demeanor etc etc

As for Fabregas, given the opportunity i cannot see why he wouldnt succeed, he ticks a lot of boxes for mine, with the most important being his early speed and strength. Barcia Bale ( of those racing at present )is another for mine, but he needs to kick some goals before i put him in Fabregas category.

So how is Barcia not in the same "category" as Fabregras???? both have won a Group 1 and I woud think, considering Barcia has broken multiple TR's he could be infront??? not sure really sure how you assess??? both possible champs??

cheers

i think you were spot on with your previous assesment and that is also another fickle thing about the greyhound industry is that people have a liking to one sire and proclaim the second coming, yet when clearly talking about the dynamics of other sires often agendas beyond what the dogs have to offer come into it?

I am of the same oppinion that jury is out on Barcia bale for me as their are plenty of track record holders that have also won group races that have come out to stud and produced diddly squat! (note he is a super dog i simply want to see another level in his racing before im sold)

i am convinced it is all genetics, rearing and a truck load of luck!

It is better to go to what you like and be wrong than go to what you do not like as much and be wrong, essentially you have the same chances of getting quick ones as you will through getting slow ones!

really it is a period of rediscovery in greyhounds at present as their is nothing really standing up from the new brigade so people must try freshman sires to discover who will be the next top producer.

my bet is it will come from

superman
dyna tron
el grand senor
bekim or heston bale
radley bale

fabregas also does look like a promising option and i am keen to see more of what his strengths and weaknesses may be in races like the melbourne cup or easter egg!

Sean,

that leads me to another question......is there a race that "determines" succees for a stud dog

for instance, in the thoroughbred world the winner of the Golden Slipper is "nearly assured sire success"......examples like Canny Lad, Marscay,Danzero, Flying Spur, Stratum and many others all throwing on....there are more successes than failures when looking at this race

do we have the equivalent in dog racing...is the Easter Egg a good guide, or Melbourne Cup or National Sprint etc....perhaps it deserves its own thread

The Nation Sprint and Distance titles are the WORSE open Group 1's on the Calendar...and it has been that way for along time, hence their minimum prize money...I like to think, those people whom have been for awhile know that...its only be the Adelaide Cup which has slipped to same level...

cheers