From your article Mark:

"In contrast, the intestines of an omnivore or herbivore are longer to accommodate the fermentation times required when digesting carbohydrates.

In a carnivore, plant matter is expelled quickly, before it can be fully digested and the vitamins and minerals can be absorbed because of their short digestive tract.

This is EXACTLY why many BARF feeders puree their fruits and veggies before serving them to their dogs."

It doesn't say that they won't benefit from the nutrients in plant matter once broken down.

It only says that it is not ideal to make it the major part of a diet and common sense dictates you wouldn't

So what do you feed then Mark?

Given the way this discussion is going it is an important question.

It does mention later that "dogs lack the salivary enzymes to digest plant matter, consuming fruits and veggies places an additional burden on the pancreas tasking it with producing extra enzymes to deal with the starch, cellulose and carbohydrates. Feeding these foods strain the pancreas, making it work harder to produce more enzymes than normally needed to digest proteins and fats."

It might help the digestive efforts somewhat to blend it, but it doesn't change the fact that fruits and veges are not good for your dog.

Tom Flanagan wrote:

So what do you feed then Mark?

Tom,

When I started, most trainers fed beef and bread (wholemeal, not whole grains which they can't digest). Mornings were usually a couple of 2x4 biscuits.
I used to add Feramo (and tried a few other vitamin supplements), a Slow K tablet and some calcium. Breakfast was either the biscuits or toast with vegemite and White-e sprinkled on top.

After taking a break for about 8 years I came back and fed the beef and bread with some calcium powder still but threw out all the other supplements and gave them Kohnke's Energy Gold and Stockgain on alternate days. Occasionally they get some bones.

Breakfast became a cup of Coprice. I know it's not giving them much......but it puts something in their stomachs in the morning and doesn't cost $100+ a bag.

I feed the bread and kibble in the expectation that it will not do anything other than provide some fibre (roughage) and slow down the digestive process somewhat (firmer stools and greater nutrient uptake from the meat and fats in their food).

I've tried expensive kibbles and they have NEVER improved any of my dogs. Some however have definitely slowed them down.

Just don't pay exorbitant prices for ingredients that are of no benefit to your dog.

I think it was Tom Meulman that wrote an excellent article on why the "wheat allergy" thing is a complete furphy? Regardless, if you do spend big dollars on a grain free alternative, they have just replaced grains with other carbs and starches (sweet potato.....peas....chick peas.....).

Dogs do need some roughage.
Unless you have a steady supply of fresh rabbit skins, small digestible bones and offal, then kibble or bread are the easiest way to give it to them.
Just don't think that they are going to get much more benefit than that out of it!

Generally I agree with you on all you have said.

Bones can tie dogs up, so they need something that will pass quickly through the system.

However, plants do have nutrients and for dogs they have to released and the only way to do that is to crush them into a liquid pulp which their system will better absorb via the enzymes in their gut

Tom,

I have fed predominately a raw meat diet for over 2 years.
The carbs are heaped tablespoon of mixed blended vegs (blanched) with a few ground grains...minimal.
The vegs would not amount to anymore than 5% of the diet.

To my thinking, the vitamins and minerals are from natural sources.
Kibble has nothing, its made of waste products cooked in extreme temperatures, so in fact, its nothing plus the added bonus of carcinogenic values and bacteria.
Each to their own and we all have a choice.
My dogs poo is minimal, so for me, I'm seeing what goes in is being utilized.
You put waste in, you get waste out.

There was a Greyhound specific study done a few years ago by a Uni...over 3 years.
Bottom line was...the best result for performance was achieved with 5% carb ratio...NOT MUCH AT ALL!

Thanks Michael - just out of interest, on that diet - how much meat (and what sort) would you give per day to say a 30kg greyhound?

Mark's article is an interesting one and its another opinion but there are some excellent points made.
Although the subject is canine its not Greyhound specific.
Who knows, she could be spot on but I can't get my head around not giving the dogs any carbs at all.

I'm no expert and I could be off the mark but what I'm trying to achieve by feeding simple is give the dogs racing life longevity and less complications.
If carbs and starches (vegs) put extra load on the pancreas, I can cop that easier than feeding waste products that cause cancer, kidney, liver, adrenal, and intestinal complications.

What I do believe though is that no diet formula is going to give you 10 lengths.
Hopefully, what a healthier diet will do is give another 10 or 20 starts and less Vet bills!

P.S.
There is a well known trainer who had a champion dog who had a digestive problem.
He used to send blood to a top SCIENTIST for analysis.
She diagnosed the problem and it was treated successfully.
She is a world renown expert in her field who is commissioned from around the world to diagnose and fix problems in elite thoroughbreds.
After she found the problem with his dog, she said to the trainer..."You're not a stupid man so why would you be feeding commercial kibble to this dog? DO YOURSELF AND YOUR DOG A BIG FAVOUR AND MAKE YOUR OWN."
True story.

Michael

Why are all dogs at times predisposed to eat grass?

It's a cleanout for their gut. I doubt there is any nuritional value in plain grass.

I agree with you that kibble is of little or no value to the dog and only increases the amount of stools.

If there is any value it may be the extruded plant matter that is included in the 'mix' that helps to clean the dogs gut out

But that can be achieved with a pulped version of rice and vegetables that are friendly to dogs

I believe it is used as 'convenience' food.

I've read many theories on eating grass from a biling tool to boredom and everything in between.
I think you are for the most part right...biling, stomach cleanser.

You are also right about a "convenience food" along with a dash of brainwashing and brilliant marketing.

Each to there own and I completely understand the "save time, less hassle factor" of convenience food.
If I had 50 dogs in training I'd have to hire a cook.

Each to their own.

Thanks Michael, what you say makes a lot of sense - and you are doing as you say - all credit to you. I was sympathetic to the argument that dogs ate stomach contents of their kills until the study of wolves said they didn't.

I'm currently feeding my retired dogs mainly chicken necks and the kibble I mentioned earlier, along with a small amount of crushed steamed vegies - carrots. broccoli and peas, and twice weekly brisket bones - no powdered supplements whatsoever. They are very healthy, happy and full of energy with great teeth and shiny coats, not sure how racers would go on it tho - I would give them more red meat. I worry that straight muscle meat (without any kibble) may not carry the variety of nutrients that you would get from a mix of muscle meat, tendons, bones and nerves that you get by mixing in things like necks and brisket bones.

When I was a kid in the early 70s my dad reared an obscurely bred litter (on a rear them keep half the litter arrangement) on nightly beef and vegie stews (potatoes, carrots, pumpkin, various greens) - we didn't train them ourselves but 3 of the 6 were city class (tho only one of those 3 lived beyond 2 years of age CLICK HERE - most of the others died in a dog trailer accident).

The kibble back then was a lot worse than the stuff available now - nearly every dog racing had runny stools, and you could almost pick the brand of kibble by the colour of the droppings!

EXTERNAL LINK
Food for thought.

Yeah like medically trained people get everything right.