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Reducing Greyhound Injuries!page  1 2 

David Crawford
United Kingdom
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Posts 235
Dogs 4 / Races 3

06 Aug 2014 21:22


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I firmly believe a lot of injuries to greyhounds could be avoided if they were exercised and raced in both directions. A lot of older greys, especially ones with a lot of mileage on the track, become slower mainly because they have become one sided and have developed a muscle imbalance. Is there a reason for all tracks to run anti-clock? If a horse jumps out to the right at every fence and runs off the bend on a left-hand track it is switched to a right-hand track to make things easier. The greyhound does not have this luxury or option.The mentally seems to be if he cann't go left-handed he's no good. Your views please?


Charlie Borg
Ireland
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Posts 2016
Dogs 0 / Races 0

06 Aug 2014 21:26


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It's a good theory but it's one of those "we'll never know" scenarios



Dave Lonergan
Ireland
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Posts 3410
Dogs 18 / Races 0

07 Aug 2014 01:08


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david crawford wrote:

I firmly believe a lot of injuries to greyhounds could be avoided if they were exercised and raced in both directions. A lot of older greys, especially ones with a lot of mileage on the track, become slower mainly because they have become one sided and have developed a muscle imbalance. Is there a reason for all tracks to run anti-clock? If a horse jumps out to the right at every fence and runs off the bend on a left-hand track it is switched to a right-hand track to make things easier. The greyhound does not have this luxury or option.The mentally seems to be if he cann't go left-handed he's no good. Your views please?

your probably right..myself I leave them off in the field or fields let them do what they like



Jason Caley
Australia
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Posts 385
Dogs 6 / Races 0

07 Aug 2014 12:21


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David - that's excellent advice to maintain a hound, let em manoeuver however they want to go. But yeah at 17m/sec+ when racing unidirectional the original poster has a point. Stress forces at that speed consistently on the same limbs. Also bidirectional options for racing would permit far more greys that never made it to the track to compete. Some dogs that can only cope up a straight and can't handle clockwise would be ok going the other way.

Just remember though, up a straight it makes no difference, the left legs will take the majority of the work, it's just the way they work. You're both right! (yeah I know it's the same David)



John Spracklen
United Kingdom
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Posts 504
Dogs 0 / Races 0

07 Aug 2014 13:29


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How about having a figure of eight track?


John Murray
Ireland
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Posts 473
Dogs 1 / Races 0

07 Aug 2014 16:39


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The problem here and GB is we are to obsessed with the clock and our tracks are no longer fit for purpose as dogs are getting bigger and faster the bends are still as tight as they were forty years ago?? Look at America there dogs/bitches run over 100 races as a norm ,there tracks are slower and safer with wide turns and not so long straights.Safer tracks properly maintained should be the priority IMO.


Philip Taylor
United Kingdom
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Posts 105
Dogs 0 / Races 0

07 Aug 2014 16:58


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john murray wrote:

The problem here and GB is we are to obsessed with the clock and our tracks are no longer fit for purpose as dogs are getting bigger and faster the bends are still as tight as they were forty years ago?? Look at America there dogs/bitches run over 100 races as a norm ,there tracks are slower and safer with wide turns and not so long straights.Safer tracks properly maintained should be the priority IMO.

You hit the nail bang on the head


Julie Pearson
United Kingdom
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Posts 140
Dogs 4 / Races 0

07 Aug 2014 21:25


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Yes the muscles will develop as a result of going in the one direction but so will the bones . It's a process known as bone modelling and bones will strengthen as a result of stresses placed upon them .
It may well be that by switching between going clockwise and anticlockwise you could actually increase the injury rate .

With horses because they are always handled from the near side they often find it easier to go left handed or anti clockwise . If they have problems going the opposite way I'm afraid it's often because they have been rushed through the breaking in process and have never learnt how to balance themselves properly .
Anyone who knows how to break a horse in properly will be horrified at how badly the process can be done in some racing yards




Jason Caley
Australia
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Posts 385
Dogs 6 / Races 0

27 Nov 2020 12:50


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Julie Pearson wrote:

Yes the muscles will develop as a result of going in the one direction but so will the bones . It's a process known as bone modelling and bones will strengthen as a result of stresses placed upon them .
It may well be that by switching between going clockwise and anticlockwise you could actually increase the injury rate .

With horses because they are always handled from the near side they often find it easier to go left handed or anti clockwise . If they have problems going the opposite way I'm afraid it's often because they have been rushed through the breaking in process and have never learnt how to balance themselves properly .
Anyone who knows how to break a horse in properly will be horrified at how badly the process can be done in some racing yards

I know this is an ancient thread I am resurecting but I'd like to know if any studies have been done in the past 6 years+

It's all fine and well for everyone to have theories but is there any science involved? If bones remodel to suit unidirectional circumstances as do the corresponding muscles it makes one fit for purpose until something goes bang. The fundamentals of physiotherapy are to compensate for atrophy of bone or muscles by compensating with appropriate exercises to make use of those bones and muscles. (essentially retraining the body to use lost attributes)

It seems to me that at best - straight tracks and free gallops are still the only way to achieve this.

Would it really set the world on fire and disrupt racing as we know it to have a clockwise track? Genuinely interested to see the counter arguments.

Important for me to say I am not advocating a clockwise track - just curious as to attempts and why it failed if it did?

The greyhound and cheetah strides are clockwise rotary so perhaps it exacerbates this and increases injuries? I simply don't know but aside from NASCAR and motorcycles etc not sure of any sport involving animals or humans that is so decidely unidirectional.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

27 Nov 2020 23:18


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Jason,

Quite a big subject. One direct answer to your query is that a NZ Vet/Scientist ran a study some years back which pointed out that the repetitive anticlockwise processes from education to racing did produce inherent bone weaknesses (or imbalances) which may well have affected subsequent injury rates.

Can't find the reference at the moment but I will look again. Meantime, even to a novice, the theory is pretty obvious (free gallopers notwithstanding).

A related issue - but not a justification - is that more than 80% of greyhounds are essentially right handed/pawed. Therefore, a clockwise track would disadvantage them.

But you raise a vital subject. Most (or all?) vet studies are internalised to the animal itself and few to the interaction between the dog and the environment (track). Studies on turn banking would be the only exception.

Otherwise, track design parameters tend to emerge from engineers who may or may not have the right animal experience. Albion Park is a specific example (Bede Ireland). So is the upcoming Traralgon track.

As an average/fair but right handed cricketer, I always made it a practice to maximise the number of occasions when I could use my left hand - mostly fielding. It has paid off. It can be done, as evidenced in the old days when lefties were forced to write with the right hand at school.

Note that Rafael Nadal, owning a monster left forehand, writes and throws with his right hand. It takes all kinds.



Malcolm Smart
Australia
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Posts 12802
Dogs 19 / Races 34

28 Nov 2020 13:05


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A greyhound's running action is Left front , Right front, Right rear , Left rear so naturally runs anti-clockwise..




Tony Gallagher
Australia
(Team Member)
Posts 5908
Dogs 12949 / Races 40209

28 Nov 2020 20:24


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I think which foot a greyhound leads off is simply evolution. We breed from dogs running anti clockwise so their progenies bones, muscles, and characters over generations of breeding will do the same. For this reason I believe changing the direction could only end one way and that would be injuries on top of injuries.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

28 Nov 2020 21:30


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Tony,

The evolution theory may well have some relevance. However, to put it in context, studies of many animals, including dogs but rarely greyhounds, show that handedness can vary from 50% to 90% (right) but for no obvious reason. I guess this supports evolution.

To a novice, it would seem that educating a dog around the whirligig at a very young age - always in the same direction - would instil undesirable habits in it. This equates to the example of a teacher insisting on a kid writing with its right hand, regardless of its preference.

A related point is that wide runners often tend to become "centre" runners as they gain experience and learn better how to get close to the lure.

Whatever, "multi-hand" exposure prior to racing could only benefit the pup physically - particularly its bone development. It would also be worthwhile organising serious professional studies as (injuries aside) wide runners are at a distinct disadvantage in the racing game.





Tony Gallagher
Australia
(Team Member)
Posts 5908
Dogs 12949 / Races 40209

28 Nov 2020 21:46


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Bruce, almost 100 years of track racing so 100 years of breeding has us where we are today. If it is not broken don't fix it.

If the topic is to reduce injuries there are better ways to accomplish this than changing the direction a dog is running around a track.

In saying that the theory of it is an interesting topic.





Jason Caley
Australia
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Posts 385
Dogs 6 / Races 0

29 Nov 2020 07:54


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Bruce Teague wrote:

Tony,

The evolution theory may well have some relevance. However, to put it in context, studies of many animals, including dogs but rarely greyhounds, show that handedness can vary from 50% to 90% (right) but for no obvious reason. I guess this supports evolution.

To a novice, it would seem that educating a dog around the whirligig at a very young age - always in the same direction - would instil undesirable habits in it. This equates to the example of a teacher insisting on a kid writing with its right hand, regardless of its preference.

A related point is that wide runners often tend to become "centre" runners as they gain experience and learn better how to get close to the lure.

Whatever, "multi-hand" exposure prior to racing could only benefit the pup physically - particularly its bone development. It would also be worthwhile organising serious professional studies as (injuries aside) wide runners are at a distinct disadvantage in the racing game.

So no one has tried the other way - and still no empirical data to support legacy thinking is my take away.

Not a proponent of any direction but the fact it hasn't been studied in over 100 years is sad in my opinion.

Horses have races in both directions.

Genetics causing bone remodeling or what any animal experiences after birth is a crock.





Jason Caley
Australia
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Posts 385
Dogs 6 / Races 0

29 Nov 2020 08:00


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Malcolm Smart wrote:

A greyhound's running action is Left front , Right front, Right rear , Left rear so naturally runs anti-clockwise..

Left front (10 o clock) to right front (2 o clock) = clockwise
Right rear (5 pm) to Left Rear (7pm) = clockwise

who taught you time Malcolm or do you come from Queensland? And did you agree to your own posting or a fellow Queenslander lol - it matters little.

Gallop seems clockwise to me..

EXTERNAL LINK
It may indeed exacerbate injuries because the forces of running a circle where they are engineered biologically will increase injuries but still haven't found a single study nor any reason other than "tradition" as to why we race this direction.

(note - before 1927 it was all coursing and directions were about whichever way the greyhound chased the hare)




Malcolm Smart
Australia
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Posts 12802
Dogs 19 / Races 34

29 Nov 2020 10:29


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Jason Caley wrote:

Malcolm Smart wrote:

A greyhound's running action is Left front , Right front, Right rear , Left rear so naturally runs anti-clockwise..

Left front (10 o clock) to right front (2 o clock) = clockwise
Right rear (5 pm) to Left Rear (7pm) = clockwise

who taught you time Malcolm or do you come from Queensland? And did you agree to your own posting or a fellow Queenslander lol - it matters little.

Gallop seems clockwise to me..

EXTERNAL LINK
It may indeed exacerbate injuries because the forces of running a circle where they are engineered biologically will increase injuries but still haven't found a single study nor any reason other than "tradition" as to why we race this direction.

(note - before 1927 it was all coursing and directions were about whichever way the greyhound chased the hare)

couldn't translate most of that , you try running around a right corner , leading with your left...



Carole Brown
Australia
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Posts 32355
Dogs 185 / Races 2

29 Nov 2020 11:35


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Malcolm, when I used to ride horses, they nearly always used to lead with their left foreleg going around a left hand bend, and with their right going around a right hand bend. It was also much more comfortable for the rider, as their movement was jerky if they led with the "wrong leg."


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

30 Nov 2020 20:20


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Tony Gallagher wrote:

Bruce, almost 100 years of track racing so 100 years of breeding has us where we are today. If it is not broken don't fix it.

If the topic is to reduce injuries there are better ways to accomplish this than changing the direction a dog is running around a track.

In saying that the theory of it is an interesting topic.

Tony,

As an observer I can only jump in where angels fear to tread.

I support your thought that there are better ways to go in seeking solutions to track injuries - although we are often hampered by the failure of authorities to disclose information. The broken hock study by GRV and others is one example.

However, on the 100 year trend I would suggest that experienced people have pointed out "they are not as robust as they used to be" etc etc. Perhaps this is a function of a greater attention paid to speedy beginners in the breeding caper.

The current huge push towards shorter races is further evidence that change is taking place.

All this is why I called for regular professional studies of the state of the breed and what, if any, effect the trends have had. We may well need to "fix it" rather than ignore it. Who knows?




Jason Caley
Australia
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Posts 385
Dogs 6 / Races 0

01 Dec 2020 08:02


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Malcolm - is a greyhound striding clockwise or counter-clockwise?

Easy question to answer. Leading foot.. believe it or not that is up to the animal. Have had both left and right commencing strided dogs. It doesn't change how they gallop in rotary action, just how they commence their runs.

I gave you a link and tried to descibe how hands on a clock face correspond to their galloping action. It moves left-right-right-left etc as you indicated. Same direction as a clock.

Anyway - there will not be any adventurous spirit on the part of the racing authorities to trial it as it's a capital works program with significant costs.

If there's anyone with private track or property that has tried, please PM me as genuinely interested in bio-mechanics.


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