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Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
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23 May 2021 04:15


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High number of "good" dogs breaking hocks etc down in Victoria i am told. Also told that these "fast" tracks favouring leaders.



John Watts
Australia
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Posts 976
Dogs 7 / Races 6

23 May 2021 08:52


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The track is well overdue for a revamp. Also I don't think anyone would argue if they decided to go loam, but can't see it happening.
The 315 distance will give access to more grades as we will have short course, sprint and middle distance boxes. Not all dogs racing over shorter distances are squibs some are taking advantage of grading. I'm just happy that RQ have the confidence to invest in the region.


Mark William Claxton
Australia
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23 May 2021 09:23


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Spot on John. Every 'dog' costs the same to keep.Also, staying grass is a big plus imho.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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23 May 2021 22:51


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mark william claxton wrote:

Bruce, my point of view 315m races are ideal for older 'dogs' (masters races) as it can extend their careers. Regards to sand/loam tracks, as previously stated by Rob Britton the powers that be seem hell bent on fast (hard) tracks as in Victoria his concerns have fallen on deaf ears. I have contacted a fair few leading trainers & they all agree. It seems that fast times ie track records are a good advertising tool for marketing.

Mark,
Wherever I have checked I have found that Masters dogs may well lose a little toe in the 1st sectional but most are able to maintain their overall times quite well. This is certainly true over 400m-460m where most race. In any event they will be in the minority in the 300m category.

But full marks to clubs which have advanced the Masters cause over the last decade. Many thought it a silly idea originally but it has proved its worth and is still increasing.

Of course clubs like to see track records broken and pay special attention to feature nights. But this is chest-thumping and preaching to the converted etc as the vast majority of the public would not have a clue, even if there was extensive real advertising - which there isn't.

What the public like to see is good clean racing where their investment gets a real chance going around the corner. No 300m race does that (straight tracks excepted), nor are they conducive to the betterment of the breed.

Finally, my copy of the GRV Track Manual (it's a bit old) contains 15 pages of instructions about surfaces and is designed to "allow the greyhounds to grip into the surface and ... remain balanced while running". Whether they do that in practice is another matter altogether.

PS The Sandown record almost went down in a trial over the weekend but I see no publicity about that. Maybe later?

PS2 The current Sandown record is in place only because GRV installed different timers at the boxes. SO it is actually false if you want to put it that way. Apples and oranges.



Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
Dogs 0 / Races 0

23 May 2021 23:51


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Bruce, the '$2' punters don't care what distance races are over. Actually the shorter the better, so they can 'invest' quickly on the next race. Only have to go to a TAB or Pub tab to witness this. In regards to sand/loam track surfaces, is NO suprise that a "high" number of TOP dogs don't have more than on average 50 starts these days.


Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
Dogs 0 / Races 0

24 May 2021 03:35


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Mind you, they are saying Bundy 460 will become a '420'. Going on that may well be a corner start. The positioning of starts can be just as bad as badly produced surfaces.


Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
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24 May 2021 03:44


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"Sorry" I take that last sentence back. 460 is staying, so hopefully a wider & better camber will sort out interference around that 1st bend.



John Watts
Australia
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Posts 976
Dogs 7 / Races 6

24 May 2021 18:52


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The distance has nothing to do with interference as a whole, the 460 in Bundaberg is an atrocious start, not dangerous but dogs who race there consistently that aren't box rockets quickly learn to wait and see before accelerating, this is not peculiar to Bundaberg other tracks will be the same, I've raced an old dog up here Tommy Time, watch his races tell me whether the 331 at Albion or the 460 in Bundy is best for him and he's not one of Bruce's squibs. Track Design and not distances are the issue everywhere. Bruce would the $2 punter be better investing on Tommy at 331 Albion or 460 Bundy?


Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
Dogs 0 / Races 0

24 May 2021 21:23


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I use to have the same opinion as Bruce in regards to 300m racing. But times have changed & we have to change with it. As at the end of the day tab turnover is critical & the younger generation of '$2.00' punters don't care about race distances. As I said, the shorter ie quicker the better to them.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 2092
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24 May 2021 23:21


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John Watts wrote:

The distance has nothing to do with interference as a whole, the 460 in Bundaberg is an atrocious start, not dangerous but dogs who race there consistently that aren't box rockets quickly learn to wait and see before accelerating, this is not peculiar to Bundaberg other tracks will be the same, I've raced an old dog up here Tommy Time, watch his races tell me whether the 331 at Albion or the 460 in Bundy is best for him and he's not one of Bruce's squibs. Track Design and not distances are the issue everywhere. Bruce would the $2 punter be better investing on Tommy at 331 Albion or 460 Bundy?

John,
Sadly, I can't comment on the detail at Bundy because the Australia-wide analysis we did regularly was necessarily confined to TAB tracks - which Bundy was not. It's a TAB newcomer. However there are firm principles available.

First, on every circle or one-turn track an event of 400m or less will produce higher fall rates than longer trips (except that some 600m-650m races are messier than others, depending on box placement). BY definition, all such starts will be closer to the turn.

Cleaner racing can be achieved in those cases by placing the boxes in a mini-shute - ie off the track proper - but nobody does it due to outmoded thinking. (Canberra 600m was an exception).

Second, fall rates and interference levels are not necessarily in the same order. For example, 600m starts lead straight into the nearby turn, meaning dogs are busy positioning themselves and usually not at top speed. Interference can be high but falls not so much.

Third, speed kills. That's why most falls otherwise occur around the turn when dogs have reached max speed and are less able to react to circumstances. Commonly in Oz, cambers are too low, making it hard for some to maintain a consistent course. (NB the turn radius also has to be highish and even all the way round).

Fourth, I am befuddled by the comment that dogs "learn to wait" when negotiating nasty bend starts. Sure, older dogs tend to be more careful about what the field is doing and their experience may well suggest not going like a bull in a china shop. But that is fairly small beer. Still, observation (not stats) shows that a fall most frequently occurs when a slower beginner tries to make its way through the field.

Fifth, the last comment is demonstrated at Albion where the worst fall rate occurs in 331m and 395m races (ie high speed into the corner) while the best or lowest fall rate is over the 600m trip (ie lower speed into the adjacent corner).

Mind you, bear in mind that the home turn at Albion is poorly cambered - something which particularly affects 710m runners as well as those out of the 331m and 395m starts. (I gather this is one of the negative effects of constraining the area available for the track - due to trots' demands for training circuits).

The basics are clear: maximise the distance to the first turn and increase the cambers on the turn (to 10%) and well into the home straight.

For tipping I would want to know all the relevant first sectional performances. But I am not a tipster. In fact I stopped betting a few years ago for three reasons; lousy pools; too many low quality fields; too many crook tracks.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 2092
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24 May 2021 23:30


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mark william claxton wrote:

I use to have the same opinion as Bruce in regards to 300m racing. But times have changed & we have to change with it. As at the end of the day tab turnover is critical & the younger generation of '$2.00' punters don't care about race distances. As I said, the shorter ie quicker the better to them.

Mark, my experience and observations are the opposite. The mugs do like to see their choice get a decent run for the money and that is not available for the shorts.

I should also add that the "changing times" are an outcome of what trainers do, not what the customers want (is that investigated?).



Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
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25 May 2021 08:26


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Bruce, i do agree that '300m' races should NOT contain a long run to the 1st corner especially on 2 turn tracks. The ideal placement is half way to the 1st turn. Thus giving dogs time to position themselves before they reach top speed. Actually ALOT of dogs tear right back muscles early on in their preparation, when are given a long run to the 1st corner. As in straight runs, they predominately use their "left" back leg. Therefore, right back leg not as firm.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 2092
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26 May 2021 00:01


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Mark, the other thing mentioned more than once on this and other threads is the availability of current stats - on injuries as well as FTC, fighting etc.

All this is readily available in the bowels of state authorities but they don't let it out (albeit SA is much better than others and GWIC in NSW publishes helpful data).

To take a tiny example, GRNSW has just told us that tonight's Bulli meeting replaces the usual Wenty meeting. But they don't say why. What's the big secret?

The broad objective - almost everywhere - is to tell us as little as possible. This is an arrogant mindset.


Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
Dogs 0 / Races 0

26 May 2021 07:52


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Sounds ALOT like the greyhound rearing property that Sandown 'invested in. Suppose to be a big deal, but nothing advertised.


Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
Dogs 0 / Races 0

08 Oct 2021 12:28


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John, what date is the upgrade of the actual Bundaberg track due to start? Re-Mark.


Brian Terry
Australia
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Posts 735
Dogs 36 / Races 5

10 Oct 2021 04:55


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I believe that Brian Barrington is doing the job. Due to the COVID situation in NSW it has been delayed.



Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
Dogs 0 / Races 0

10 Oct 2021 06:04


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Oh ok, thankyou for that Brian.


Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
Dogs 0 / Races 0

01 Nov 2021 08:44


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Bundy race today as no results on thedogs?


Brian Terry
Australia
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Posts 735
Dogs 36 / Races 5

02 Nov 2021 04:31


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Apparently the NBN was down but they still had the sky channel link.


Mark William Claxton
Australia
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Posts 958
Dogs 0 / Races 0

02 Nov 2021 05:49


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No results to be found.

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