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Carole Brown Australia (Verified User) Posts 32355 Dogs 185 / Races 2 20 Mar 2015 09:55
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James, it's hard to get a start sometimes, and it has happened far too often to be random. You can't keep scratching them.
Dino Brunato Australia (Verified User) Posts 90 Dogs 2 / Races 31 20 Mar 2015 10:00
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I have a little more information thanks to GRSA and GRSA Racing Manager Sean Mathieson and grader Greg for welcoming me to the GRSA, I would like to thank them very much allowing me to view a race meeting draw at Angle Park Monday 23rd March 2015 from it's infant stage of graded events,naming race and nominations for each race to the final drawn fields. Each runner is entered and computer it puts them in alphabetical order. The 8 runners and reserves are pre-determined on order of preference by the grader. You then press "automatic draw" in the case of SPECIAL EVENT or FINAL the option is automatic or manual draw buttons if drawn on course. The field is then box drawn for that race when you hit " Automatic Draw"and then "Confirm" and so on. once the races are all drawn a "re-draw" and "confirm" button option appears. So that in only in extreme circumstances eg: grading error allows this process to happen and warning emails are sent out to certain officials that a re draw has been requested and certain permission granted for this to happen. I have to admit, I wondered whether re-draws could occur and the option is there so glitches are obviously there to allow this to happen 2 obvious consecutive draws appeared that did not seem to bother anyone there it's was accepted. I know what my view is, I'm bothered !!!
Tom Richards Australia (Verified User) Posts 1003 Dogs 0 / Races 0 20 Mar 2015 10:03
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dino, if the software that makes the draw has a "bug" which i think it has , what is input is not the deciding factor.
I believe the system software has a "bug" and the draw is not random
Dino Brunato Australia (Verified User) Posts 90 Dogs 2 / Races 31 20 Mar 2015 10:35
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I totally agree Tom what also really bothers me is that my trainer entered 3 dogs for rapidvite heat and final wednesday a week ago there was one heat the scratchings were declared at 4.30 pm tuesday 2 runners were in the field his 3rd runner got a start. He received an email at 5am on the wednesday morning before the heat was run with the box draw for the final on the following monday at Angle park and drew 6,7,8 with his runners. But what if there was a vice in the race FTP, FTF, or injury 1 or 2 runners short would have changed the draw the system leaks real bad and us owners and trainers wear it, ones that draw well,or supporters of this system say stop griping until their dog is affected at with least public viewed draws you see with your own eyes and walk away saying that's that
Tom Richards Australia (Verified User) Posts 1003 Dogs 0 / Races 0 22 Mar 2015 08:33
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hi steve, have you or anyone else looked at draws in response to my earlier post that trainers initial effects the draw?
Steve Harvey Australia (Verified User) Posts 1175 Dogs 0 / Races 0 23 Mar 2015 05:08
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james saunders wrote:
scratch them carole if its going to hurt there confidence and break the squeeze box cycle if you believe that to be the case..cant complain after the fact.
I have also had the same problems as yourself. So taking everything into perspective , if I had a 1st starter ready & if it drew 4,5,6 at its 1st race start I personally would scratch my K9. I know that sounds like I have no confidence in a K9 & I'm NOT encouraging this practice but the way box draw allocation have been & still are I personally would scratch it 2 be on the safe side - unless the owner disapproves - then re-nom the K9 again 2wks later & see what box it draws then , UNLESS it was a real hot youngster then I WOULD start it regardless of what box it drew. The last K9 I raced only drew box 1 once in 16 starts & had squeeze box's 2 contend with in nearly all its maiden races until its 9th start & then it was KO'D into the rail at 2nd start. It took me 2mths 2 get her ready 2 race again but after that she kept missing the jump nearly all the time & I constantly was working on installing confidence back into her mind - NATURALLY- & that is the toughest part + she was NEVER quite the same bitch again. Once a K9 has had 1 or 2 "bashings" it NEVER 4gets it trust me & its a difficult job 4 any trainer 2 clear its mind of its past bad encounters 100%. Training K9's is more of a mind game than anything in my opinion as anybody can get a K9 2 a certain degree of fitness but getting it 2 chase super hard & mix it in a full field from squeeze box's is the main objective I reckon anyway. Ah the joys of training K9's eh ! Ha Ha Ha.
Steve Harvey Australia (Verified User) Posts 1175 Dogs 0 / Races 0 23 Mar 2015 05:19
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tom richards wrote:
hi steve, have you or anyone else looked at draws in response to my earlier post that trainers initial effects the draw?
Yes Tom. I had a good look & I agree there IS something DEFINATLY wrong with some sort of algorithm mistake within the parameters of this software system 4 SURE in my opinion & its taken a little while b4 this has been noticed by a HUGE number of trainers etc etc. & MUST be looked into further in depth IMMEDIATELY 2 install trust back into all the trainers in every state that the system is completely 100% "fair & square" 4 ALL participants. Whether the hierarchy does or not remains 2 be seen. Also Tom , did the officials reply 2 either of those posts you sent them ? If so , what was their reply m8 ?
Tom Richards Australia (Verified User) Posts 1003 Dogs 0 / Races 0 23 Mar 2015 07:10
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hi Steve 1st response was the system is correct and random. I disputed that and have sent in some numbers from meets where i have counted the number of times the same intial christian name of trainers are side by side in a race against the number of times they are not side by side in a race. (some races do not have 2 entries with same intial)
If it is random, it should be ~4:1 not side by side. On the small sample of venues i checked, it is closer to 2:1 side by side. IE: side by side numbers are double what they should be.
J and A were very prone to be drawn side by side. My sample is only small, so it can be argued it is not large enough to be taken as correct, but the numbers certainly are enough for an audit to check my theory.
Steve Harvey Australia (Verified User) Posts 1175 Dogs 0 / Races 0 23 Mar 2015 07:48
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tom richards wrote:
hi Steve 1st response was the system is correct and random. I disputed that and have sent in some numbers from meets where i have counted the number of times the same intial christian name of trainers are side by side in a race against the number of times they are not side by side in a race. (some races do not have 2 entries with same intial)
If it is random, it should be ~4:1 not side by side. On the small sample of venues i checked, it is closer to 2:1 side by side. IE: side by side numbers are double what they should be.
J and A were very prone to be drawn side by side. My sample is only small, so it can be argued it is not large enough to be taken as correct, but the numbers certainly are enough for an audit to check my theory.
Tom , it doesn't surprise me at all that the authorities claim the system is 100% perfect m8. BUT that attitude is what we all have come 2 know all about eh. But that attitude of "nothing is wrong" could be their undoing as NOT IF, BUT WHEN this system is investigated by an INDEPENDANT firm who specialise in that field of expertise they WILL have egg on their faces when the report comes in that the system HAS faults & must be rectified. In the mean time everybody must just have 2 cop it sweet & soldier on I guess m8.
Edward (Ted) Howard Australia (Verified User) Posts 1195 Dogs 16 / Races 0 24 Mar 2015 03:27
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Hi Tom, Just look at Launceston on the 30th As together Ss together and this happens all the time and lots of trainers noticing in tasmania.
Tom Richards Australia (Verified User) Posts 1003 Dogs 0 / Races 0 24 Mar 2015 05:52
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hi Ted, it is amazing how often this occurs. Look thru any meeting and count the side by side same intials and then also count the races with same initial but not side by side. Side by side is many times more than the random rate should be.
Mitchell Tubinas Australia (Verified User) Posts 813 Dogs 11 / Races 1 24 Mar 2015 09:25
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Its amazing how unlucky my boxes are every week considering someone at GRNSW has it in for me. Ive never ever been given a fair go infact always draw boxes that ruin pups early in there career. Yet funnily enough when my old girl was past her best by a long shot and they knew considering i was going trialing with one of there partners and they rang them trying to fill noms and i said 2 weeks in a row i would nom mine to do a favour i drew the 1, 2 weeks in a row in completely outclassed fields. Whole thing is completely corrupt and if they wanted to prove otherwise it would be like a live lotto draw. Grow up GRNSW. I wouldnt be so annoyed but I spend all my hard earned not inherited money and all my time with no help whatsoever and for each week to see this pathetic box draw. I may as well donate half my pay to GRNSW each week as there the ones costing me. Not to mention a litter of pups that are gonna look pathetic to potential buyers when there old enough thanks to them. Ive bit my tongue long enough and still drawn 4,5 the last 4 times ive nommed. Ive had enough!
Dino Brunato Australia (Verified User) Posts 90 Dogs 2 / Races 31 24 Mar 2015 10:05
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Mitchell you would probably have found if you had a top flight pup running sensational times and was on a 4 or 5 winning streak that drew punters you would have got the boxes your dog needed to keep the winning streak going for SKY and viewers would watch.There's something rotten in Denmark, and the sooner the racing fraternity rebel and refuse to nom with this system and boycott.Then state may jump off. This is a 2nd rate box system not fit to use in a racing code and will continue. It would be great to hear from overseas dog codes to hear what they have and what box systems they have.You can't have a system that you can alter willy nelly
Dino Brunato Australia (Verified User) Posts 90 Dogs 2 / Races 31 24 Mar 2015 10:20
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Look at Angle Park 26th March fields breeders prelude P Hearnden dogs rest my case lose this system NOW!!!!! DEMAND A RE-DRAW They have the facility to do it,a good system wouldn't allow them to. TRASH IT and get back to something that works
Tom Richards Australia (Verified User) Posts 1003 Dogs 0 / Races 0 24 Mar 2015 20:15
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i do not believe the draw is "corrupt" thru intervention. I believe it has a software bug that groups dogs based on the trainers 1st intial. Every meeting i look at supports my theory.
Dino Brunato Australia (Verified User) Posts 90 Dogs 2 / Races 31 24 Mar 2015 21:24
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Tom, I do believe that on a state by state basis it can exist and may.Especially if the rumour that is banded is true that certain states wager certain percentages of their intake profits to the their race meet. YOU BET IT COULD EXIST To allow the re-draw to occur let's face it. If the software had it's parameters, ineligible grading problems wouldn't occur.The grader double checking and the software being done properly a maiden is maiden,tier 3 is a tier 3. SURNAMES and INITIALS are just one obvious fault, that viewers are seeing. it also becomes apparent that certain dogs and trainers fair better, look into that. Most of us are looking at one aspect why do some of our dogs never draw box 1 or 8 and another dog will draw 7 or 8 box "ones" in the same number or starts look at your top flight dogs in each state. Every state wants to please SKY. Who determines race times and dress code on the track, the parading of dogs prior to race "SKY". Our dogs only get one shot at racing as youngsters certain puppy classics and events but we all want even playing field. Certain weaker dogs are sacrificed for the better dogs to keep on winning.No one knew how far baiting would go and look how many well respected trainers went and title races they held.So don't think box draws can't be,I want GRNSW to tell me the exact people who developed this system coz I can't find who. Look out of the tunnel people
Tom Richards Australia (Verified User) Posts 1003 Dogs 0 / Races 0 24 Mar 2015 23:56
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dino. a few yrs ago i went thru the dogs of "top" trainers and recorded the number of inside boxes(1-4) V outside boxes (5-8) they drew. In all cases across the board with total dogs they had, it was almost 50:50 which it should be. A few dogs had a high % of either inside or outside boxes, which can happen , like throwing 10 heads in a row at two up. Friends who complained they only ever got outside boxes come up close to 50:50 also.
I believe an audit should be carried out re my theory on the trainers initial as this theory is backed up by stats. (look thru the race fields)
Dino Brunato Australia (Verified User) Posts 90 Dogs 2 / Races 31 25 Mar 2015 00:13
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That's a start Tom but depends who does the Audit external or internal it should be well respected auditor here or overseas an auditor that pulls no punches and makes the authorities makes OZCHASE enforce them. So that we have a clean, workable,fair system and move on.NO RE-DRAW facility, a system that is transparent so no conjecture.Otherwise a complete waste of time
Mitchell Tubinas Australia (Verified User) Posts 813 Dogs 11 / Races 1 25 Mar 2015 01:32
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I second that. It will only fix one aspect of the sport though as I believe there is way more that is overlooked intrgrity wise in the sport. Next make kennel blocks safe from people getting to your dogs.
dino brunato wrote:
That's a start Tom but depends who does the Audit external or internal it should be well respected auditor here or overseas an auditor that pulls no punches and makes the authorities makes OZCHASE enforce them. So that we have a clean, workable,fair system and move on.NO RE-DRAW facility, a system that is transparent so no conjecture.Otherwise a complete waste of time
Adrian Dowdle Australia (Verified User) Posts 113 Dogs 7 / Races 9 25 Mar 2015 03:22
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A few good examples same trainer drawn next to each other in consecutive races:
Canberra, Sunday, 29 March 2015, Race 7,
1 Tranquil Midge Mrs Kim Mulrine 2 Pebbles Dreadful Mr Mitchell Conquest 3 Allen Firestorm Mr Simon Rhodes 4 Triella Bale Mr Simon Rhodes 5 Unsub Jennifer Mrs Jennifer Maitland 6 Moon Dog Mr John Scott 7 Rita's Recipe Mr Dean Maniaci 8 Ay Flash Miss Mandy Blewitt
Canberra, Sunday, 29 March 2015, Race 8,
1 Bobby Bant Mr Denis Hogan 2 Maddison Mcgrath Mr Ronald Hoogenboom 3 Molly Mcgrath Mr Ronald Hoogenboom 4 Big Hoff Mrs Kim Mulrine 5 Sunlit Cobber Mr Shannon Ellis 6 Simply Dawn Mr Paul Turner 7 Roos Ahead Mr Glen Ginn 8 Carwoola Ella Mr Trevor Peck
Definite failure in the system. It is far from random and totally stuffed.
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