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8 400s at richmond on a saturdaypage  1 2 

Chris Carl
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 725
Dogs 19 / Races 0

28 Nov 2015 21:23


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 (2)

That cant be good


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17301
Dogs 13995 / Races 1799

05 Oct 2018 10:29


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 (2)

3 x 500m races on tonight the rest are 400m and 330m

Yep Chris, it's not good for your main night of racing


Michael Barry
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 6875
Dogs 26 / Races 9

05 Oct 2018 11:19


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if you have 400m dogs it terrific ,,
remember most dogs these days are 400m dogs

check race 4 at richmond just before lol

i was at the local pup for a few hours this arvo/tonight , not one person betting would have any idea if the race was 2 metres or two kilometres , remember these guys keep the sport alive


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17301
Dogs 13995 / Races 1799

05 Oct 2018 12:04


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 (0)

Yep Mick, that's true, I know those in the pub wouldn't give a rats A%&e but it doesn't mean its good racing


Ray Webster
(Verified User)
Posts 315
Dogs 72 / Races 27

05 Oct 2018 21:47


 (5)
 (1)

Michael Barry wrote:

if you have 400m dogs it terrific ,,
remember most dogs these days are 400m dogs

check race 4 at richmond just before lol

i was at the local pup for a few hours this arvo/tonight , not one person betting would have any idea if the race was 2 metres or two kilometres , remember these guys keep the sport alive

Mick - I donít agree that most dogs these days are 400 metre dogs ITíS MOST TRAINERS ARE 400 METRE TRAINERS.
The facilities around Sydney have changed so much for training greyhounds over the past 20 years or so. There used to be at least 25 trial tracks some within minutes drive of most participants homes. With the urban sprawl, most of these have been gobbled up with housing/industrial developments making it difficult for trainers to get their dogs beyond 500 metres.





Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 919
Dogs 0 / Races 0

05 Oct 2018 22:52


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 (0)

Ray Webster wrote:

Michael Barry wrote:

if you have 400m dogs it terrific ,,
remember most dogs these days are 400m dogs

check race 4 at richmond just before lol

i was at the local pup for a few hours this arvo/tonight , not one person betting would have any idea if the race was 2 metres or two kilometres , remember these guys keep the sport alive

Mick - I donít agree that most dogs these days are 400 metre dogs ITíS MOST TRAINERS ARE 400 METRE TRAINERS.
The facilities around Sydney have changed so much for training greyhounds over the past 20 years or so. There used to be at least 25 trial tracks some within minutes drive of most participants homes. With the urban sprawl, most of these have been gobbled up with housing/industrial developments making it difficult for trainers to get their dogs beyond 500 metres.

Ray,

Perhaps it's a bit of both - dogs and trainers? But your point about the availability of trial tracks is interesting and should be followed up.

It is part of a long term pattern which has clearly affected breeding over the last 20 years but we still can't be sure which is the cause and which the effect.

Since the quality of the breed is critical to the sport's future it is vital to conduct serious research to find out the truth and set up better policies for the long term.

Note - this is not just a Sydney or NSW problem. It's everywhere. All capital city tracks are putting on programs they would not have dreamed about 20 years ago - eg Maidens, Novices and Country to City finals, as well as shorter races at secondary meetings and at major provincial centres.

There was a time when Bulli would rarely program a 400m race (Barnesy found they attracted less turnover than 472m races). Cranbourne and Traralgon are dominated by 300m and 400m races. 331m races at Albion Park did not exist. Grafton added a 305m trip (with bend start). Angle Park built a new 388m trip. Cannington now routinely schedules 380m races in its prime time Saturday meeting. Where will it end?

The problem is now exacerbated by the overall shortage of dog numbers plus the utilisation of a higher percentage of each litter - meaning less competent dogs are getting a run. There are good and bad points about some of these trends but the overall effect is to lower standards across the board.

We still have some brilliant sprinters - even up to 520m - but it's the guts of the industry that has fallen away - ie good, solid 450m/500m 5th grade racing across the board.




Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17301
Dogs 13995 / Races 1799

06 Oct 2018 00:22


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 (1)

Bruce

Ipswich have full meetings of 288m races

Fair Dinkum, my break-ins run further than that

However, I agree fully with Ray, there are more 400m trainers than 400m dogs

1. All our race tracks should be available 5 days out of 7 for trialling

2. This area of reduction in training facilities was another legacy of our previous boards that didn't have the foresight to either install or support private trialling facilities - the urban sprawl was happening before their eyes.

They knew how many trial tracks were falling over each year, hell, they were licensing them

It just showed a pure lack of understanding of what trainers require to prepare their greyhounds

I fear that this lack of understanding has continued on as nothing new has eventuated in this area with no mention of expansion of public training facilities in the current GRNSW Strategic Plan

There needs to be a greater focus placed on supporting trainers to assist them in training greyhounds for longer distances


Ray Webster
(Verified User)
Posts 315
Dogs 72 / Races 27

06 Oct 2018 00:24


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Russo's, Chipping Norton, Hoxton Park, Panania, Manuka Straight, Chrissy Lodge, John Sparkes, Cleverlys at Minto, Rick Anderson's, Box Hill, Paul Cauchi's, Berkshire Park, Moss Vale, Glengarry.

The above are just some of the training facilities that are no longer available. It was possible to trial any night/morning of the week that suited at the above facilities with a minimum of time taken out of your day. The majority of these tracks allowed for night trialling. Most conditioning work now requires a visit to a racetrack with very limited time opportunity available e.g. Dapto trial 1 morning a week.

A study would reveal that trainers who constantly target 500+ racing either have their own conditioning facilities on acreage or reside close by a registered track.

Trainers used to share their facilities with other trainers (straight for hand slipping/competition runs)but I understand that in some states this practice is no longer allowed.

The other reason for the trend to shorter racing is that it is just too easy to race your dog over 330m put it back in the kennel and turn up again next week with minimum effort required.

The racing pattern has altered and will never return to the old days imo.




Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17301
Dogs 13995 / Races 1799

06 Oct 2018 00:32


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Ray

It wouldn't take much to change it back

Decent funding to support all our race tracks to maintain their tracks for trialling and racing 5 days out of 7 and a bit of old fashioned organization and project management

Leadership comes from the top...and there isn't any at the moment



Daryl Barrett
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 504
Dogs 0 / Races 0

06 Oct 2018 00:56


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Chris,i touched on this some time ago,"500m dog's a thing of the past",i think i have said that the " landscape" of greyhound racing has changed right across the board due to a lot of factor's within the industry,& i don't see this ever changing for a few reason's,ie,change's to welfare law's which give so much opportunities for greyhounds who can't run a yard past 400m,to still compete,especially now,for pretty good prizemoney on Tab C meeting's.As far as not being being good for the greyhound industry,well,i guess there would be a big difference in Tab turnover on the night,but only comparisons against a meeting of a mixture of 400,500 & 600m racing,would confirm that,which in the long term could have a detrimental affect on how much money is given back to the race club's & industry as a whole,if this became the "norm".But as I said,prizemoney is good,& the people who own,breed & train these dog's have a right to race,just like 500,600 & 700m greyhounds do,as I said earlier mate,the landscape in our industry has changed...forever,& it is something we don't have like,but accepted,& I for one,has.


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 919
Dogs 0 / Races 0

06 Oct 2018 06:55


 (1)
 (3)

Ray,

There is a pile of good information here from a variety of trainers. In other words, that tells us that the raw material is there but what is missing is the best way to put it all together and so further develop the industry - or more accurately, first recover the lost ground and then develop it.

This is not rocket science but it does need effort, a bit of nous and some serious objectives - not waffly talk dreamed up for 5 year plans but hard and realistic stuff that actually improves the breed and simultaneously rewards breeding and training excellence.

Having set those objectives you then manage the industry to achieve them.

Without doubt, the prime aim should be to produce tough, hard chasing 500m dogs (some of which will then go on to 600 and 700).

Already we have the bones of a part solution - money. There are some significant difference now between 300m and 500m prizes - if that is not sufficient then make the difference bigger. Sure, lots of people will complain but, tough, if they can't shape up then ship out.

The point is that failure to take strong action will cause a continued degrading of the end product - from both a breeding and spectating viewpoint - and the industry will then continue to degrade. You cannot just maintain the status quo in any business. You either go forwards or backwards.

Evidence? As I pointed out the other day, over the last 10 years the proportion of races of 400m and below has increased from 53% to 64%. Breeding numbers have steadily declined over the last 20 years.
Why, why, why?

20 years ago your car lacked aircon, it was very thirsty, it had no GPS, it probably lacked power steering, and it had very ordinary brakes. So they fixed all that because that's the world we live in. It can be done.



Roger Spry
United Kingdom
(Verified User)
Posts 47
Dogs 0 / Races 0

06 Oct 2018 07:50


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RAY.

i agree with you ,MOST TRAINERS HAVE FOR SOME REASON CHANGED AND ARE NOW 400 MT TRAINERS.

a few years back i spotted a bitch for sale ,she was young and had a run over the shorts at Canberra. the trainer was only asking 2000 for her. after watching the video at least 20 times i was sure this bitch had a good future over a longer distance.
needless to say i mist out on buying her.

my point is ,do trainers know if they have a good stayer.

her racing name was KILKEE FLEX group1 over 720

turned out to be a very good stayer that would have stayed 900 ,
these distance races do not exist in OZ.

as i have said before,i had a bitch in WA , I am sure she needs at least 700 ,however the trainer only puts her in 290 races,for what reason i do not know . nearly 4 years old and won only one race , what a joke.
how many more trainers are doing this these days.

the future does not look good.




Glenn Hatton
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4682
Dogs 92 / Races 98

06 Oct 2018 08:14


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 (1)

Interesting posts 3 years after the original post....if you can go by the dates??

Interesting because Chris now runs Richmond. Not sure why the thread was brought back up?

Chris is doing a good job so Iíve been told...& thatís a wrap, bc we all know how hard it is to please the masses.

I think I agree 100% with Ray Websterís post


Rod Hampton
Australia

Posts 1212
Dogs 2573 / Races 7126

06 Oct 2018 09:56


 (1)
 (1)

Maybe Richmond could try and give a bit of incentive to trainers, by halving the 520 & ptp trial fees?
at least that way trainers would actually know if their dogs could run the distance


Roger Spry
United Kingdom
(Verified User)
Posts 47
Dogs 0 / Races 0

06 Oct 2018 12:23


 (1)
 (1)

Rod.

it used to be so simple for a trainer to know what distance a young hound would be best over.

trial 1. bitches 14 months old 220 solo hand slip
trial 2 220 solo hand slip
trial 3 300 solo . out of boxes
trial 4 300 2 dog .with older racer
trial 5 300 2 dog with older dog
trial 6 480 2 dog with older dog
trial 7 480 2 dog with older dog
trial 8 480 3 dog with older dogs

by now you can tell by how far the pup has pulled clear of the race dog from the winning line to the drop off .about 200 mt further.

most of my 700 800 and 900 hounds would be 8 - 15 lengths clear of a 480 mt dog at the pick up.

same for male dogs. starting at 15 or 16 months

note ,, 7 days between each trial

note ,, all hounds should be racing by 18 months old

note ,, no bite ons
no post to post
no catching pen

note ,, no wrecking them at the breakers,trying to break them in in 4 weeks. then spelling them for 5-7 weeks


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 919
Dogs 0 / Races 0

06 Oct 2018 23:52


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 (3)

Roger,

ďturned out to be a very good stayer that would have stayed 900 ,
these distance races do not exist in OZ.Ē

Marathons were discontinued a few years ago for unknown reasons Ė I saw no official announcements Ė and a good thing too.

I checked the performances of many such runners before the race and for 6 months afterwards. About 10% were OK; the rest never regained their pre-Marathon form over any distance. They were shot to pieces.

To my knowledge, no-one has ever studied the subject to work out why that happened Ė breeding v training, nature v nurture? If they have done studies, they have been very quiet about it. So the wet finger dominates.

It has been a breath of fresh air to see Tornado Tears go around, or watch Poco Dorado run a smart 41.77 last night (albeit on a fast track). But you canít make up policy on the basis of what a couple of dogs do. Itís more important to assess what the other 14,000 active dogs are doing.



Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17301
Dogs 13995 / Races 1799

07 Oct 2018 00:01


 (3)
 (0)

Bruce

Specialist marathon dogs who can run on a circuit of marathon races can and usually do hold their form, as long as they can get the racing they need in between by way of 650-700m races

No dogs are machines, they won't last forever, marathons can take their toll physically for sure

Whilst I am always critical of the number of short course races any club puts on I do applaud the Richmond Club bringing back the marathon distance of 790m recently

It would be good to see one programmed every 3 months like they had at Sandown a few years ago and throw some decent prizemoney to it

I would like to see the Wentworth Park 969m marathon reintroduced as a feature race on Easter Egg night with a decent purse

The dogs who went through the Association Cup series and didn't make the final may be able to front up in it along with any other stayer

The only proviso I would make for dogs nominating for marathon races, and this is only purely from a welfare issue, is that each starter must have started in at least 2 x 700m+ races over the last 4 weeks

Perhaps the increased amount of 400m races are also affected by a number of factors including the recent million dollar series and features around the countryside, lack of breeding numbers, breeders trending towards sprinting lines, lack of trialling facilities, less injuries to deal with, increased cost in terms of time and trialling fees to prepare a dog for longer distances.

I definitely see a trend where trainers just prefer to sprint their dogs and not test them further, because its just easier to handle larger numbers of dogs in this fashion


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 919
Dogs 0 / Races 0

07 Oct 2018 05:22


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 (2)

Sandro,

Much in what you say but not those awful 969m races at Wenty, please. You may be missing the point I made that 90% of Marathon competitors were stuffed after the race - and for evermore. And, usually, they had the sort of preparation you suggest. But you can bend the branch just so far before it snaps.

Equally, the related point is that many of those same 700m competitors are there because they are no bloody good at anything else. (Much the same principle applies to 650m bonus fields around the country).

In any distance races, forget the first two and consider what the rest are doing - going up and down in the one spot on the home turn, or leading and then compounding. What are their qualities? What is their form like?

In theory, I would also like to see the variety offered by Marathons but the facts tells that the dogs cannot do it. They are killers. They run smack in the face of all the welfare measures so loved by the PTB.

Moreover, is it not better to improve what we have rather than re-invent the wheel? What does a 790m race at Richmond tell us that a 717m race would not do?

While I am here, consider a point raised by Malcolm Knox (SMH 6-7 Oct) when addressing the fragile nature of cricket. This equates to my suggestion about creating a stronger 5th Grade circuit for 450/500m dogs because that is the guts of the industry - or should be .....

"Having had some involvement with school and club cricket, Iíve found it hard to find anyone bristling with confidence about the game in Australia. Cricket does high-performance well, it does female cricket well (so far), and it does modified-formats for young children well. What it does not do well is build a solid bedrock of participation through the teens into adulthood. It gets people into the game, but it (like many sports) fails to keep them. School after school can tell you how they used to field three or four teams per age group, and now they field one team per three or four age groups. Clubs have talent at the top, but they donít form great pyramids so much as Sleeping Beautyís castles, the talent tapering off steeply. Most people tell you the game is on the verge of crisis. But not CA. Look at those numbers! Steady as she goes".

So here's one measure that I will leave with you: pay $100 for 5th Grade provincial wins over 300/350m and $2,000 for 500m. Do that and you might get a bonus - stronger 500m dogs which can then lead to extra genuine competitors over 600m etc.




Valerie Glover
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 98
Dogs 2 / Races 0

07 Oct 2018 06:10


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Boy's ,, Some very real obvious, points coming out here :: What has happened for all the reasons already put forward on this forum ? Less dogs ? so more with less quality needed to be drawn to make fields , esp for the TAB ,which means whatever can be nominated draw it, so the lessor dogs that once were passed onto the country tracks don't need to be, especially, when they have been cut from past 30 plus meets per year down to av, 12 , we had 150 plus meetings deducted to save $ 700,000 now spend that on a couple of slow wage earners ?And with the current GAP regulations it is harder to find country people interested as well ?? So the catch 22 goes around, and when ever the rearing facilities code is re/introduced as it was put out the way it was to be, even lessor dogs again., And Ray your right on the ball all those trail tracks that have been gobbled up by development , were there for all to use 7 days a week, workers /top trainers and all, most had morning and evening trials , Sandro has the point " that tracks need to take that extra spot of more hours, for trainers /owners to have the chance , and especially worker's,, But it comes back to the obvious , less dogs bred and reared , less numbers of all possibility's to happen , we have to shake the tree,?? Again " Strategic Plans " Grading , Center's of excellence , track facilities upgrade s ,??? all we get is forum's seminars, training testing , but nothing moves , I really think the greens picked an easy target ? Bob Glover


Steve Bennie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 629
Dogs 11 / Races 2

07 Oct 2018 07:27


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VERY WELL SAID Bob Glover

posts 37page  1 2