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John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 01 Dec 2015 22:11
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Mark Donohue wrote:
There are some great ideas on data - on different threads and I have forgotten a lot of those ideas. The problem we have comparing Victoria with NSW is size of NSW, population, ICA and the tax disparity which puts NSW at a huge disadvantage. Closure of tracks doesn't necessarily support looking after our dogs when we want to race locally with country graded dogs that are still hard to beat. It's a fascinating subject that makes it a conundrum.
Mark I wrote in an earlier post on this thread that to go forward we must have an unbiased opinion in what we do to go forword we all know Victoria is much smaller than NSW but honestly tracks must be closed and for mine TAB tracks must also go to help other areas that are regionised.Take Taree Kempsey Wauchope on any given weekend 2 of those tracks lay idle where is the logic in that close all 3 and open a TAB track or refurbish 1 of the other 3 and design it with NO corner starts.Mark we need to keep this thread moving forward in those papers that have to be in by 16/12/15 this question is asked so can we forget about prizemonies for this post and debate the question.You have a group of people you are going to or chatting to already you people can put a recommendation in like anyone else but please sit at the table with an unbiased opinion.You and I know tracks will be closed you tell me this a farmer gets 50 litres or more from a cow she is on her 3rd calf he has another cow there producing 30 litres she is on her 7th calf he must offload 1 of those cows which cow should he offload.Or A man employs 5 male employees of those 5 employees 3 are good honest workers 1 only works 4 days a week but is far superior in turning the work over while the other finds it tough to think for himself and his work rate is below the other 3 over the week he must put 1 employee off In all walks of life hard decisions must be made hopefully for the better we are starting to see what is going to happen in these papers the powers want change and they will get it for the simple reason we have too many tracks and they hold the whip handle and you can mark my word on that they are looking at a 2 hour travelling period from 1 track to another Newcastle to M'Brook 2hrs .to Sydney 2 hrs to Taree 2 hours Tamworth to Gunnedah 1 hour from Armidale 2 hrs? that's a guess Bathurst to Sydney/Richmond around 2 hrs and so it goes on
Allen Hansen Australia (Verified User) Posts 232 Dogs 6 / Races 0 01 Dec 2015 22:39
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Why is closing tracks such an issue? The state as a whole needs to restructure to survive financially, who doesn't want a track at their doorstep? Less tracks racing more, less meetings more races put on 12 or 14 races if needed (kennel design/upgrade needed to accommodate split kennelling), minimum $1000 races no more non tab. Create a 6th and 7th grade for young and slower dogs, after so many wins or an amount of $s won minimum drop back is 5th grade, 1 win on any track and distance ups grade at that track and distance only
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 01 Dec 2015 22:49
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Jack we have a grading policy which kicks off with an order of choice to guide the grader to make up the fields this can also be used in other ways to help solve the problem of which you speak and it only takes the stroke of the pen it is simple and there should be no kick backs from participants all the club has to do is call for nominations for a 50 rated Maiden Mixed or 5th grade no dog from 51 upwards can race in that 50 rated race or heat under these conditions your dog handicaps itself the more successful your dog the harder or higher the race it competes in.Jack Order of Choice the way it is now is biased towards the better dogs not some of the time but all the time for every race irrespective the grade of dog here is an example with a horse Jack An Open grade horse who had a benchmark rating of 100 = 6kgs above the limit of 54 = 60kgs has now fallen on tough times between age and poor form he has a benchmark rating of 82 points is nominated for a 92 Rated race where he was carrying topweight in an Open grade hen in his prime he is now carrying the 54 limit in a far lesser grade .
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 01 Dec 2015 22:59
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Allen blind Freddy can see what is happening tracks will close having more grades solves nothing but using Order Of Choice means the grader at No time can get to your dogs vulnerabilities its weakness of not being overly quick
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 01 Dec 2015 23:51
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John,
The group that I wanted to have conversations with, was one that I wanted to talk to about issues that I listed, over the next three to six months and then beyond when this Discussion Paper was sprung upon us all. I haven't begun to talk to anyone except to obtain emails from some, which I appreciate. I'd have a hundred of us, but restricted it for convenient sake. It's not going anywhere quickly, but really wanted to get ready for the Special Inquiry Recommendations and the next State election. We are all busy so I'm just trying to work out where we could go with it.
I listen and read, and don't think that my idea is better than the next person. I like your arguments, but I don't necessarily agree with all of them. The same with others.
I can ram my points of view down GRNSW throat, but if they don't want to swallow them, I can't make them. We tried advising the previous CEO and Board, but they never listened. Here we are now, doing it all over again. It's another opportunity to plan our future. No doubt there will be winners and losers. GRNSW has decided to consult with us, which is what we have wanted for a long time.
I don't know many on the JWG, but they have some good ideas. So, we all get a chance to respond to some questions. A fella who I don't know, emailed me about his $200k investment on greyhounds. He divided his story into categories such as breeders, rearers, trainers. I was able to mentioned some of his information in my responses. I think we want these types of people hanging around the industry. So, if we can improve our business model from breeding to racing to retirement, I'm all for it. Don't get me wrong, some establishments have got it right. . My advice to all and sundry is to submit your answers to the discussion paper questions and more if you want. . Conversations with some will be short and sweet until I finish Discussion Paper. I'm up to Question 16.
Jack Gatty Australia (Verified User) Posts 2055 Dogs 1 / Races 0 02 Dec 2015 00:59
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I don't think I will have time to respond to every point of reference and do it justice but will try to respond to one of the points thoroughly. Mark, Well done getting through to question 16. If you think it would help - you could send a copy to people who you think would be behind your paper and get people to sign as supporters of your paper and then we might get 20 or more co-signing in support and it may give more weight to your reply, just an idea.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 02 Dec 2015 01:30
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I haven't added anymore after Q16, but give me an hour and I'll send it. Some mightn't like all of my ideas, but that's okay. When the others are done I'll send the them as well.
Jack Gatty Australia (Verified User) Posts 2055 Dogs 1 / Races 0 02 Dec 2015 01:47
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That's fine Mark - I don't think anyone is going to agree with everything but if we agree with the overall ideas I thought it might pull more weight if 20 or more signed as supporters of your paper. Good luck with it Mark and I like your passion for our sport and dogs,which is the main thing.
Sandra Giles Australia (Verified User) Posts 225 Dogs 0 / Races 1 02 Dec 2015 02:05
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Mark, only just read this thread, I am not converse with a lot of the issues but willing to help out in any way I can.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 02 Dec 2015 02:33
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No wurries Jack and Sandra. I'll send it now. I just had to do something out the back.
Sandra Giles Australia (Verified User) Posts 225 Dogs 0 / Races 1 02 Dec 2015 03:07
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Jack Gatty wrote:
There are some hard decisions that need to be made. When welfare is supposed to be at the forefront of every decision it is a conundrum. If country tracks close, where do the slower dogs race? Currently the slower dogs end up on these country tracks. Governance is a big one - until we get leaders that are passionate dog people who will stand up for the code we will just tread water. V'landys is a classic example - no matter how much I despise his arrogance, his passion for his code is unquestionable. I am told that that the average starts for a dog in Australia is 11. Whilst in the US it is around 40, this is the major issue in my book. What is their secret? Well it isn't a secret, their track surface and lure design ensures that dogs race alot longer and more often - they are not obsessed with times when selecting breeding stock but strength, number of starts and numbers of wins are the criteria. We need to get our dogs having longer careers and alot more starts. And as we all know if we recieved our fair share of the intercode and tax parity alot of the improvements needed could be funded.
Jack, I think you have hit one of the nails on the head with your comments on the US track surface and breeding for strength instead of the flavour of the month sire with the fastest time, most of our tracks here are prepared like concrete and EXTRA hard concrete when there just happens to be a GROUP race on, I don't think the punters give a dam about what times dogs run as long as they have picked the winner, so WHO is it and for WHO's benefit is it that wants to see the winner run a track record, when the following week it will most likely come out and run an ordinary time in an ordinary race when the track is back to normal. JMO
Jack Gatty Australia (Verified User) Posts 2055 Dogs 1 / Races 0 02 Dec 2015 03:28
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Sandra - personally I think it's a major issue. We seem to be preoccupied with speed, when in the US they judge a dog on how many starts and strike rate in wins and because alot of their dogs have over 100 starts they get to know the racing style and how the dog handles different racing scenarios. I don't think America does everything great, especially their wagering and owner /trainers model is very poor but their track design and surface along with their lure system is providing dogs with long and safe careers. I wouldn't care if our dogs ran an average of 2 seconds slower if it prevents injury and gives our dogs longer careers with less injuries. I know alot won't agree but I think its time to draw a line in the sand and make changes for the good of our dogs. Also collapsible lures must be introduced Imo.
Sandra Giles Australia (Verified User) Posts 225 Dogs 0 / Races 1 02 Dec 2015 03:39
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Jack Gatty wrote:
I wouldn't care if our dogs ran an average of 2 seconds slower if it prevents injury and gives our dogs longer careers with less injuries. I know alot won't agree but I think its time to draw a line in the sand and make changes for the good of our dogs. Also collapsible lures must be introduced Imo.
Totally agree with you on that.....what difference does the time make there is still an outcome and a safer one at that! Also just to clarify one of the things I said, if the punter IS looking at times,I think it is "consistency" of times they would more like to see.
Tom Richards Australia (Verified User) Posts 1003 Dogs 0 / Races 0 02 Dec 2015 04:04
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agree with sandra and jack, times are the least important aspect of racing. Safe races where dogs run to their potential over a long career is the main issue.
Robert Morris Australia (Verified User) Posts 695 Dogs 0 / Races 0 02 Dec 2015 06:16
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For those interested GAs response to issues paper has been published in this weeks NGF.
They still seem obsessed with reducing breeding to solve the wastage problem but don't really have any real solutions on how to increase the number of dogs that make it to the track & maintain the number of races held each week.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 03 Dec 2015 07:35
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That's one of the questions. There is a theme running through the questionnaire and it relates to reducing wastage and improving welfare. It's strange a national body can't be creative.
Rod Hampton Australia Posts 1626 Dogs 2993 / Races 11816 03 Dec 2015 08:33
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What % of NSW participants will respond in such a short window of time? take into account that "only owners" are supposedly still registered Given the % that don't get the "survey" anytime soon I've sent my responses, see what happens. The initial response to my query was, " further queries and responses will be sought afterwards" or something like that second verse, same as the first - do dah do dah what do I want for Christmas - Grant to get an uppercut & several kicks aimed at you know where, a hard target
Grant Dunphy Australia (Verified User) Posts 743 Dogs 4 / Races 1 03 Dec 2015 09:27
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Robert, Thats because "no. of dogs that make it to the track"& should include "No. of race starts our dogs average"is a welfare issue that needs Grnsw committing to allocating funds to actually copy the surface & preparation of American tracks ( the stats speak for themselves 95% make the track & heaps have over 100 starts ) We don't need to spend money paying people who don't know to advise GRNSW what we have been advising GRNSW for 15 years_ spend it on track surface & getting rid of bend starts. Stop spending our money on useless information gathering GRNSW. Use this & other threads on this site.This is where your years of knowledge & expertise is giving free,sound advise. Stick to getting rid of the few bad eggs and be truthful in your dealings & respect & support all the good people you should be representing or give the job to someone who can.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 03 Dec 2015 10:20
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Rod, I can't blame participants for not submitting a reply in full. It's time consuming. It feels like I'm rushing and repeating the points, which is something that I have done over the past three or so years. . Maybe that's the reason why they teach us as kids, songs like the Twelve Days of Xmas. . Meanwhile, the Bishops spend $30k and $50k of taxpayers money. Check.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3236 Dogs 6 / Races 0 04 Dec 2015 00:58
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Submitted and received. . Also, I mentioned the timeframe that was given n perhaps the reason why some couldn't respond as well as the timeframe that GRNSW might be required to follow. Anyway, i can't wait to see what the model looks like.
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