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Welcome to the Greyhound Knowledge Forum

   

The Greyhound-Data Forum has been created to act as a platform for greyhound enthusiasts to share information on this magnificent animal called a greyhound.

Greyhound-Data reserve the right to remove any post that is off topic, advertisements or opinions they consider to be offensive.

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Jamie Quinlivian
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 8727
Dogs 10 / Races 0

28 Mar 2018 11:06


 (3)
 (0)


When was the last 'honest' Premier in any state?
Every state election comes down to a few seats unless the public have reason to show a massive swing against the sitting mob. So both parties rely on support from the minor parties to pass legislation. The Greens are the biggest minor party so they get what they want most of the time.
This is why all greyhound racing people need to get behind the SFFP and tell their rural family and friends to do the same.
Its been proven over and over again that noone will listen to us or represent us. So we have to use our numbers to vote for the only party that can defend our sport as a principle.
Labor and the Coalition are both as corrupt and unreliable as each other. We need to use our vote and let one party fight for us in the only place that matters, in Parliament.

Now, back on topic. 61 litters for sale on GD classifieds and probably many more not needing to advertise.

EXTERNAL LINK



Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7681
Dogs 180 / Races 66

14 Apr 2018 07:50


 (9)
 (0)


Good luck to all runners in tonight's GOLD CUP.

After NOT receiving enough nominations to run heats for a GROUP 3 EVENT last week, tonight's race will be raced as a BEST 8, with $25,000 to the winner.

Not bad eh.

The shortage is definitely here.

Thanks boffins for BRUSHING our decades & generations of experience, & destroying the industry.

And still, you continue to IGNORE our JUDGEMENT.

@$$h01e$.


Russ Forno
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 274
Dogs 0 / Races 0

14 Apr 2018 11:35


 (8)
 (1)


G.A.P. employees. ( i have participated) Very young, tattoos, enough piercings to believe they have fell into a tackle box. Add that to the two trainee pony tailed "yes" voting GREENIE leftard veterinary "experts". There is no way, your six months of effort in training "flasho" to lay on the lounge of a couple of latex loving devotees in the suburb of Paddington will come top fruition. The "dude" in the pony tail told me " flasho"passed , except he went vicious when i checked him around the groin area. (Little do they know, i filmed the whole sad saga and taped the resulting conversation) RICHMOND.


Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3236
Dogs 6 / Races 0

22 Apr 2018 01:38


 (4)
 (0)


After three years of reforms, Wenty Park continues to struggle for noms. Well done Lib/Nats; your plan is working well.


Terry Jordan
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 6018
Dogs 0 / Races 0

22 Apr 2018 03:16


 (8)
 (0)


Mark Donohue wrote:

After three years of reforms, Wenty Park continues to struggle for noms. Well done Lib/Nats; your plan is working well.

You forgot the GBOTA! Have protected Wenty, like the Govt with the McHugh Report. Majority of participants would agree to a NEW track out/side of the City precinct.


Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3236
Dogs 6 / Races 0

22 Apr 2018 03:34


 (3)
 (0)


GRNSW has been propping up that joint for years. Yes, the GBOTA ! Great team work.


Nicholas Arena
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 233
Dogs 10 / Races 0

11 Jun 2018 00:56


 (7)
 (1)


Meadows Wednesday has only one maiden race it has only six starters - one has had 7 starts - another 13 starts- another 20 starts - another 33. The two remaining dogs are having their 2nd starts.
There use to be up to four maiden races at the Victorian Wednesday metro meeting.
Contrast this situation with the tier 3 meetings - plenty of maiden races - full fields over short courses. Trend is, city racing will continue to struggle to find sufficient genuine 500 metre dogs.Anyone who has any knowledge of the Industry knows it is not purely a mathematical exercise to establish the number of dogs required to maintain race field versus pups that need to be bred - there has always and will be, an element nature controls - 500 plus metre dogs are not simply designed on paper, irrespective of how hard the breeder tries to bred strength.Nature ultimately determines the vast majority. Yes sometimes certain sires throw strength - but invariably the next generation won't replicate the same performance traits. Short of cloning I am not sure you can get around this basic.
It would be interesting to know if anyone has the historical data that breaks down or estimates the number of pups to race over 500 metres or further versus the number of dogs to race.
And NSW is talking about bringing a puppy bond - good luck with that.


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

11 Jun 2018 04:37


 (0)
 (0)


Nicholas,

Knowledge is scarce. What we do know is that 14,000 dogs are currently racing in Aus - but declining. I also have past data on the proportions of dogs racing in each distance category (but not the absolute number). I am about to update that so will post the trend here when available. Be assured there is a huge trend towards shorter races.

However, those answers are compromised by the fact that many 500m dogs (and 600m or 700m) cannot actually run out the trip - they are pretenders or hopefuls or just youngsters and fade at the end. So counting by nominations could be misleading as it measures only what trainers think is a good idea and is obviously influenced by prize money.

Technically, hardly any can run out longer trips because they reach their maximum speed at around 435m on average and are slowing after that.

Desirably, this should be matched against breeding patterns to determine which causes what but that is outside my brief. Or put it this way - Tornado Tears is an aberration. But then so was Miata.




Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 19488
Dogs 15268 / Races 1856

12 Jun 2018 04:50


 (2)
 (0)


Only 9 races at Bulli, disappointing


Michael Peter Martin
New Zealand
(Verified User)
Posts 75
Dogs 0 / Races 0

12 Jun 2018 05:55


 (2)
 (0)


I can understand how frustrated you must feel, especially when we have no trouble carding fields full on OZ imports over here.


Patrick D'Arcy
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 188
Dogs 3 / Races 0

12 Jun 2018 07:03


 (5)
 (0)


Michael Peter Martin wrote:

I can understand how frustrated you must feel, especially when we have no trouble carding fields full on OZ imports over here.

Get ready for the inevitable flow on Michael. Especially if current trend continues in Australia


Michael Barry
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7405
Dogs 26 / Races 9

12 Jun 2018 07:20


 (0)
 (11)


is it really a shortage of dogs , or just far too many races programmed at all venues ?



Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7681
Dogs 180 / Races 66

12 Jun 2018 08:06


 (15)
 (0)


Michael Barry wrote:

is it really a shortage of dogs , or just far too many races programmed at all venues ?

Yes, there are far too many races...because there's a shortage of dogs. lol


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

13 Jun 2018 00:57


 (9)
 (0)


Steven,

Yes and no.

The primary impetus is that state authorities get medals if they bring in more turnover each year. They don't care how. Therefore they have grabbed any available hole in the TAB calendar and filled it with a new race.

Pre-2010 there was also a push to increase races per meeting from 10 to 11 or 12 for the same reason. That eased off in some places (eg NSW) but continued unabated in others (Vic, WA).

When conventional means of filling boxes did not measure up they then brought on low standard races (more Grades, Tier 3, C class)which then attracted lesser lights in the litter.

Concurrently, breeding numbers had long been in modest but steady decline but plummeted post-2015 after live baiting. By that time, all the rabbits had been pulled out of the hat and there was nowhere to go. Even with some recovery in recent times the mathematics were still poor - hence all the empty boxes.

The short term challenge is then to assess if the industry is better off wearing the short fields and the consequent risks to exotic betting, OR would it be better to reduce races and concentrate on more effectively promoting full fields of what's left (ie to maintain the same turnover). Given the attitude of bureaucrats running the industry, the former option is more likely and has been adopted so far.

Unsurprisingly, the missing (and ignored) element is that excellence is no longer a determinant. Average field quality is down, as well illustrated by the new but growing habit of programming low grade races at major city venues. Even on Saturday nights, the industry's biggest betting venues at Wenty and Meadows have been degraded by the addition of various provincial meetings in competing time slots. Dog quality is there but not big betting pools.

That leaves at risk the goose that laid the egg - good punters will not patronise crappy races or lousy pools and so have gone elsewhere. Mugs will not care, which is why they have grown in relative importance. Nice to have but can we rely on them for the industry's future?

My guess is that the industry can get away with a reasonable number of short fields for a period but not with a poor quality betting environment - notably one where the pools are split into smaller and smaller bits.

Major attention has to go to (a) genuine efforts to improve breeding, (b) scheduling more high quality races, (c) promoting the product and (d) more pressure on governments to clean up the wagering scene. In passing, I could add a suggestion that a percentage of prize money should be shifted from city to provincial racing. The cost to the city would be minimal but the benefits to week-round racing high.



Patrick D'Arcy
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 188
Dogs 3 / Races 0

13 Jun 2018 07:11


 (4)
 (0)


Bruce Teague wrote:

Steven,

Yes and no.

The primary impetus is that state authorities get medals if they bring in more turnover each year. They don't care how. Therefore they have grabbed any available hole in the TAB calendar and filled it with a new race.

Pre-2010 there was also a push to increase races per meeting from 10 to 11 or 12 for the same reason. That eased off in some places (eg NSW) but continued unabated in others (Vic, WA).

When conventional means of filling boxes did not measure up they then brought on low standard races (more Grades, Tier 3, C class)which then attracted lesser lights in the litter.

Concurrently, breeding numbers had long been in modest but steady decline but plummeted post-2015 after live baiting. By that time, all the rabbits had been pulled out of the hat and there was nowhere to go. Even with some recovery in recent times the mathematics were still poor - hence all the empty boxes.

The short term challenge is then to assess if the industry is better off wearing the short fields and the consequent risks to exotic betting, OR would it be better to reduce races and concentrate on more effectively promoting full fields of what's left (ie to maintain the same turnover). Given the attitude of bureaucrats running the industry, the former option is more likely and has been adopted so far.

Unsurprisingly, the missing (and ignored) element is that excellence is no longer a determinant. Average field quality is down, as well illustrated by the new but growing habit of programming low grade races at major city venues. Even on Saturday nights, the industry's biggest betting venues at Wenty and Meadows have been degraded by the addition of various provincial meetings in competing time slots. Dog quality is there but not big betting pools.

That leaves at risk the goose that laid the egg - good punters will not patronise crappy races or lousy pools and so have gone elsewhere. Mugs will not care, which is why they have grown in relative importance. Nice to have but can we rely on them for the industry's future?

My guess is that the industry can get away with a reasonable number of short fields for a period but not with a poor quality betting environment - notably one where the pools are split into smaller and smaller bits.

Major attention has to go to (a) genuine efforts to improve breeding, (b) scheduling more high quality races, (c) promoting the product and (d) more pressure on governments to clean up the wagering scene. In passing, I could add a suggestion that a percentage of prize money should be shifted from city to provincial racing. The cost to the city would be minimal but the benefits to week-round racing high.

Probably your best post to date Bruce




Richard Gray
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2231
Dogs 11 / Races 9

13 Jun 2018 07:38


 (3)
 (0)


Bruce,,,,, did you wake up this morning and "see the light" Very good post and spot on mate...

Rich.



Roger Spry
United Kingdom
(Verified User)
Posts 69
Dogs 0 / Races 0

23 Jun 2018 05:30


 (2)
 (0)


Patrick D'Arcy wrote:

Bruce Teague wrote:

Steven,

Yes and no.

The primary impetus is that state authorities get medals if they bring in more turnover each year. They don't care how. Therefore they have grabbed any available hole in the TAB calendar and filled it with a new race.

Pre-2010 there was also a push to increase races per meeting from 10 to 11 or 12 for the same reason. That eased off in some places (eg NSW) but continued unabated in others (Vic, WA).

When conventional means of filling boxes did not measure up they then brought on low standard races (more Grades, Tier 3, C class)which then attracted lesser lights in the litter.

Concurrently, breeding numbers had long been in modest but steady decline but plummeted post-2015 after live baiting. By that time, all the rabbits had been pulled out of the hat and there was nowhere to go. Even with some recovery in recent times the mathematics were still poor - hence all the empty boxes.

The short term challenge is then to assess if the industry is better off wearing the short fields and the consequent risks to exotic betting, OR would it be better to reduce races and concentrate on more effectively promoting full fields of what's left (ie to maintain the same turnover). Given the attitude of bureaucrats running the industry, the former option is more likely and has been adopted so far.

Unsurprisingly, the missing (and ignored) element is that excellence is no longer a determinant. Average field quality is down, as well illustrated by the new but growing habit of programming low grade races at major city venues. Even on Saturday nights, the industry's biggest betting venues at Wenty and Meadows have been degraded by the addition of various provincial meetings in competing time slots. Dog quality is there but not big betting pools.

That leaves at risk the goose that laid the egg - good punters will not patronise crappy races or lousy pools and so have gone elsewhere. Mugs will not care, which is why they have grown in relative importance. Nice to have but can we rely on them for the industry's future?

My guess is that the industry can get away with a reasonable number of short fields for a period but not with a poor quality betting environment - notably one where the pools are split into smaller and smaller bits.

Major attention has to go to (a) genuine efforts to improve breeding, (b) scheduling more high quality races, (c) promoting the product and (d) more pressure on governments to clean up the wagering scene. In passing, I could add a suggestion that a percentage of prize money should be shifted from city to provincial racing. The cost to the city would be minimal but the benefits to week-round racing high.

Probably your best post to date Bruce

very good post Bruce.
the betting pools you say are down,in other ways the betting turnover is rising all the time, you only need to look at Betfair. five or so years ago only a few thousand was bet on most races,now it is twenty to thirty on a lot of even low grade races,people will bet on any thing.

if it is FFA OR GROUP RACE the turnover will rocket.

To get the size of fields to fill the grading system needs to change.

every day hounds are going off at odds of 100-1 or bigger
i have seen some at 250-1 laid on the exchanges in WA

what sort of grading system allows a dog that has won only 3 races out of over 100 starts to compete against dogs that are ten lengths faster .

where are grades 6, 7 ,8 ,9 , 10, and 11

the number of hounds that dont make it to the track is so high.
they are deemed to be to slow for racing ,this needs to be sorted. in the UK graded racing is for A1 to A 10 AND EVEN A12 one one track.
the winning time for a A 10 is about 21 lengths outside track record, over the 480 mt trip,

i hope this gives you some thing to think about .

the number of hounds that fight in Australia is in my opinion down to a few factors.

1. get rid of catching pen.
2 build larger beds
3 allow a male and female to be together

these 3 factors alone will give you a dog that is a lot less aggressive.



Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

24 Jun 2018 22:22


 (2)
 (1)


Nicholas Arena wrote:

Meadows Wednesday has only one maiden race it has only six starters - one has had 7 starts - another 13 starts- another 20 starts - another 33. The two remaining dogs are having their 2nd starts.
There use to be up to four maiden races at the Victorian Wednesday metro meeting.
Contrast this situation with the tier 3 meetings - plenty of maiden races - full fields over short courses. Trend is, city racing will continue to struggle to find sufficient genuine 500 metre dogs.Anyone who has any knowledge of the Industry knows it is not purely a mathematical exercise to establish the number of dogs required to maintain race field versus pups that need to be bred - there has always and will be, an element nature controls - 500 plus metre dogs are not simply designed on paper, irrespective of how hard the breeder tries to bred strength.Nature ultimately determines the vast majority. Yes sometimes certain sires throw strength - but invariably the next generation won't replicate the same performance traits. Short of cloning I am not sure you can get around this basic.
It would be interesting to know if anyone has the historical data that breaks down or estimates the number of pups to race over 500 metres or further versus the number of dogs to race.
And NSW is talking about bringing a puppy bond - good luck with that.

Nicholas, the fields are not drawn yet(25/6)but by the numbers there will only be 9 races, not all full fields, no reserves except for one maybe. 74 usable noms and 4 unusable.

Looks like the overbreeding myth was more than a myth, of course at the time they were talking about wastage. Ya, the puppy bond crap is an underhanded low act, in any case I reckon the industry will run out of money sooner rather than later in NSW.


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

24 Jun 2018 23:07


 (0)
 (1)


Roger,

At my last count there were 125 different grades in Oz, all due to different states coming up with a brainwave and adding yet another grade, year after year. It's still happening with Veterans races, as we speak. Even so, Grades 1, 2 and 3 are seldom used, while Victoria had the brilliant idea of using a "No Penalty" grade, if you can call it a grade.

My observation is that the bureaucrats who do this are forever fielding calls from trainers (who all have different ideas) to change the system to better suit their personal needs. Some of those emerge from clubs (meaning more owner/trainers) which have some flexibility to stage different sorts of races - eg those limited to 1-2 wins, or 1-3 wins, or 1-4 wins, and so on.

Generally, the system is aimed at keeping lesser dogs on the track, which is not a bad thing in itself. But you then get to the stage where you start asking "Is that all there is?".

OK, there are top races, too, but the middle ground is skinny, particularly at provincial tracks but often now at the major city tracks as well.

What was once a fairly attractive mix of Grades 1 to 5, where everyone knew what the differences in standard were, has descended into a mish-mash of undecipherable quality. They are just dogs.

The club graders who once sorted out all the 5th Graders into peer groups have been replaced by a computer which could not care less. It is owned and operated by people who worry about the process, not the outcome. The computer and the internet are marvellous assets but we are just not using them well.

Above all, the industry has become trainer-centric, not customer-centric. Unfortunately, trainers don't generate funds, only customers can do that and they are disappearing like a flood down the Darling river.

Here's a test. A plane load of Inuits has just arrived from northern Canada, their pockets stuffed full of oil money. They know dogs. It's in their DNA. Dogs are their lifeline. So explain to them how 125 Grades work so they can have a bet.

PS: Fighters are an important issue but the numbers are actually very small. FTC numbers are much higher and would be higher again if you counted dogs that never see a track.

PS2: Yes, some feature races do attract good turnover. However, week to week racing shows that the quality of the race is a poor guide to turnover. Much more important is the day of the week and the time of the day. Mug gamblers!

PS3: Your Betfair comments must come from fairyland or Northern Canada, not here. In any case, Betfair refuses to divulge its annual turnover and checking race by race data is laborious and unhelpful, except for well-equipped and highly skilled punters who are probably not much interested in dogs anyway. The key issue here is that a modest pie has now been split into ever-declining smaller pieces, and Betfair is just one of many.




Terry Jordan
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 6018
Dogs 0 / Races 0

25 Jun 2018 02:10


 (6)
 (1)


1 Bruce & Roger: Agree Bruce to many different grades, "Non Penalty" racing works ok in a few area's. Desperately need a NATIONAL GRADING SYSTEM asap! And Yes all trainers have been calling for this! Bruce NO ONE'S LISTENING.
2 Your Observation is Wrong! Bureaucrats wont/don't listen to complaints or change from trainers. All Clubs programme special events 1-2wins, 1-4, mixed Maiden/Fifth grades etc. Nothing to do with trainers.
3 Yes agree, to many Pathways, Masters, when better performed 5th graders are left at home in the kennel. Rewarding Mediocrity.
If you happen to make 3rd grade in NSW. Your dog is DOOMED.
4 True the Grader is a computer, Any queries are answered in this fashion "It's not programmed into our Computer" an OVERSIGHT.
5 Trainers don't generate funds??? Who supplies the PRODUCT??
We also generate revenue to Clubs. We PAY at the gate in NSW! We pay trial fee's, We run raffles to support Clubs.
5 Bruce do Inuits race their Huskies? Cant see the relevance? Do you think Tornado Tears & Rippen Sam would go ok in the IDITAROD???
6 We are producing MORE fighters & FTC dogs, than ever! WE ALL KNOW WHY. Burying your head in the sand, wont resolve this issue.
7 Racing on days more conducive to wagering is about right now.
8 BETFAIR/TAB/ALL CORPORATES will be accommodated with the BEST/DEAL on offer, from our Sleazy Pollies based on what gratuities they are offered back.

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