Dog A
ex-hoop lure: 30.50; 5.07; 25.43; 12.87
2 wks earlier:30.26; 5.10; 25.16; 12.76

Dog B
ex-hoop lure: 30.29; 5.16; 25.13
3 days later: 30.15; 5.25; 24.90

Dog C
ex-hoop lure: 34.47; 9.20; 25.28; 12.97
4 days later: 34.56; 9.67; 24.89; 14.08
the second run was at Sandown where the times are approx 1.5 lens faster than the Meadows, so the Sandown run is approx 34.65 as a comparison, this dogs time have gone the opposite way to what you wld expect.

Dog D
ex-hoop lure: 34.87; 8.89; 25.98; 13.03
8 day later : 34.43; 9.16; 25.27; 14.16
the second run was at Sandown where the times are approx 1.5 lens faster than the Meadows, so the Sandown run is approx 34.52 as a comparison.

Dog E
ex-hoop lure:30.30; 5.19; 25.11; 12.90
4wks earlier:30.13; 5.15; 24.98

Dog F
ex-hoop lure:30.09; 5.30; 24.79
2mth earlier:30.34; 5.24; 25.11
these times have gone the opposite way, so can assume the dog has improved, but seeing the hoop lure is generally a slower time by say ave 3 lens over 500m that wld mean the dog has found 7 lens in 4 wks. I've never seen that happen before(can improve 5 lens max imo in that period of time).

Dog G
ex-hoop lure:30.46; 5.09; 25.37; 12.98
5wks earlier:30.21; 5.07; 25.14; 12.88

Dog H
ex-hoop lure:30.40; 5.21; 25.19
11dysEarlier:30.10; 5.09; 25.01

Dog I
ex-hoop lure:30.23; 5.30; 24.92
20dysEarlier:29.55; 5.27; 24.28; 13.73
second run was at Sandown approx 8lens difference in times so 29.55 Sandown is approx 30.05 Meadows

Dog J
ex-hoop lure:30.21; 5.18; 25.03
6wks earlier:30.10; 5.04; 25.06 12.85

Michael this has nothing to do with welfare. I've been rating dogs at Sandown/Meadows for I don't know how long(my last spread sheet goes back almost 10 yrs with over 15,000 ratings), and the last serious accident with a lure I've seen on a city race night was in the 80's at Olympic Park where a maiden bitch ran over the lure arm that stopped dead at the winning post the first time around, the whole field ran over it and she broke her leg.......absolutely terrible, but accidents will happen, that's the nature of racing, and I've had a bitch I bred and another I raced both put down at the Meadows with broken hocks, they are the only 2 tragic incidents of well over 100 dogs I've been involved with as an owner......the term racing itself implies 'the fastest' not 'near enough to the fastest', and yes there is risk, but that is no reason at all to justify this extended hoop lure.

btw those 10 dogs run were only in 4 wks of introducing the ex-hoop lure at the Meadows.......I gave up after that, and haven't rated an ex-hoop lure meeting since.

........NO Ryan, I want names, not a couple of cherry picked examples.
I want to look at the WHOLE picture, not just a little window...that's why I asked for names, but you refuse under the guise of some silly ethical mask.

Until you and some others GET IT that WELFARE has got EVERYTHING to do with the industry continuing, there will be countless heads bashed against brick walls.

Here is a reality check...your ratings DON'T RATE compared to WELFARE...they mean nothing, diddly squat, zilch, zip, ZERO!
WELFARE is why the extended hoop is being used. It's there to try and reduce interference, hence injuries.
You say it has nothing to do with welfare?!?!?!
How dare they try initiatives to improve welfare at the EXPENSE of your ratings?!?!?!?!
Are you for real or what?

Your theories on the extended hoop being detrimental to performance and racing styles has more holes than a block of swiss cheese.
There are literally hundreds of different reasons why a dog runs a slower or faster time than before...HUNDREDS!.
In your data, do you factor in that they are not machines?
Do you factor in box draws?(I'm sure the examples you gave were from the same box...yes? no? no? why not?
Do you factor in injuries, fatigue, checks and interference, wrong decisions in running, headache, tummy ache, poo consistency, missed jumps, some idiot decides to extend the hoop lure(included that for you in case it has a small significance with the hundreds of others), spiked, sand in eyes, spooks on the inside of runners, doesn't chase as hard off the lure, trained off, trainer tried something different - didn't work, virus, and on and on and on...

The funny thing about what you think a few extra inches on a lure can change to racing styles of dogs is that dogs overseas race with an OUTSIDE lure, yet they have preferential draws for RAILERS and wide runners, Ryan...something to think about.
Even if those few inches did causes minuscule variations in a dog's racing style it would be very temporary until the dogs became accustomed to the massive difference a few inches causes, Ryan.
You yourself have just admitted you only looked at it for 4 weeks before throwing your arms up in disgust.
With such a massive change this few inches causes, surely the dogs need a little more time to adjust to your satisfaction?

Sorry, A,B,C,D... dogs don't qualify as proof.

No need to go on because you will never be convinced otherwise and it's a silly argument when your argument of ratings over welfare will never be accepted by any authority and most participants.
It's a deadset non event.

On a more positive note...
Why don't you go back to punting on the meadows and test your convictions?
If what you say you believe to be true, you should be able to make a good profit.
Once you have worked out the dogs that have the "style" that don't suit the ext lure, you can greatly improve the odds by leaving them out!
YOU WILL MAKE A KILLING!
Good luck with that one.

Can you let me know when you meet a punter that wont bet because of an extended lure, besides you?
There has to be one out there.

FGS Michael, you scream 'welfare' at every juncture in every argument, which may cause you to morph into an animal activist real soon.

There are people who drive race cars and ride race bikes at 300km p/hr and push bikes with lycra suits and aerodynamic helmets that make them go faster and you want a greyhound who runs at approx 1 horse power for 300m to go even slower ?

Any greyhound trainer who pulls up a dog does time on the sidelines, yet you're advocating a lure system that pulls up dogs in races? Doesn't give dog racing much credibility does it ?

It's called greyhound racing Michael, not 3/4 greyhound racing and as my figs indicate(which you asked for btw), they generally go slower on the extended lure arm and it provides for inconsistent results as I have clearly shown.

You screaming 'welfare' at every juncture - we may as well see trainers line up in front of the boxes and walk the dogs around the track for 1st prize. That'll be total greyhound welfare wldn't it ? Or wld you be screaming 'welfare' again because a bloke had his lead on the winner too tight and you saw the dog choking in the walk ? Hell they may even be able to bring in protests into those walking races you'll soon be throwing your support behind.

C'mon Michael, surely you've got better arguments than that.

Once again my points are :

1. I can't remember seeing an US racedog that has raced here on the normal lure that had BOTH,'run thru a brick wall' type chase AND top city grade ability, so why then are we implementing their lure system in arguably the best greyhound racing state in Aus if not worldwide ?

2.The extended hoop lure arm from what I've seen restricts come from behind types and wide runners due to on pace runners running form the rail towards the lure and back, throughout the race, which generally slows dogs down unless they manage to get that unpredictably clear run. So contrary to your belief Michael, it actually increases race interference, it MAY prove to reduce injury, but that wld be because the dogs aren't running at full pace.

3.Why are we not able to receive the fixed tote pool figs, so as everybody can see how we are travelling ? Isn't transparency what the ptb advocate ? Doesn't it apply to them too ? No one can answer David's valid question (....what is better for GRV in relation to distribution of money back to it from the TAB for prizemoney - a punter having $100 on the parimutel or having it on fixed odds ?), as a result.
Considering the vast majority of income from greyhounds in this state is from the TAB, it's really important to be able to answer those questions.

4. The last serious accident with the normal lure I've seen on a city race night was in the 80's at Olympic Park and I wld have seen 80% of races in the last 35 yrs on both city tracks. That's 8x an audit requirement. So why are we then racing on an inefficient extended arm hoop lure at both city tracks ?

5. How can we continue to call this greyhound racing if dogs are being restrained from running at full pace by the extended lure arm ?

For all we know this lure system may have got legs to give US racedogs a fair chance to adapt to racing here, because they have fallen ever so short in the past with regard to chase and ability on the normal lure arm system. We haven't really been told why ? It's a sad state of affairs if the all empowering people who run this industry have been lobbied into this decision under the guise of welfare as you say, at the expense of the local product and Aus greyhound racing, without at least CONSIDERING(not necessarily accepting), all views. It's kinda important when you change a basic ingredient of the sport which has been successful for the last 80 yrs.

Those times I've provided are the only way to rate dog vs dog, dog run vs dog run Michael, and the same system is used by a no of full time punters. It's simply the semaphor board times and sections less checks in the run, and adjustment for track. If you're interested, this topic CLICK HERE shld provide the validation you constantly seek.

So you see I do need to go on, because of the absolute tripe you've written, backed up by no facts I might add. You asked for 10 inconsistencies I gave you 10, and you're not getting the names.........do your own work in future, and don't ever tell me what I shld be doing. When you're one of the top trainers in Qld, I may seriously listen to what you have to say. g/l with that btw.

.....The only thing I'm anti about atm is your way of thinking, Ryan............

this is partly what makes up my thinking Michael, it's quite a common and fwd way to think EXTERNAL LINK . I think.

if we dont maintain that with the greyhound breed, it just impedes the process of natural selection and we will end up with a lesser product which appears to be your thinking.

a new model is being invented , , or should i say a significant redesign,