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Charles W Mizzi Australia (Verified User) Posts 684 Dogs 1 / Races 1 06 May 2017 22:22
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Ryan/Geoff The hoop lure is a lure and it is different so dogs will be a bit put off if they have never seen it before which is going to effect results in races. GRV are particular about getting a reason why a dog has not started for more than 3 months yet have assumed that dogs will race as normal behind a new lure system and they don't. The line of sight is totally different and being sight hounds they will notice this. Dogs that are hard railers are now running 3 off the fence because that is where the lure is. Interference is less, I like the new system.
Geoff I know you have schooled your dogs with it for ages and the proper thing to do. The transition has been poorly done. When the hoop or run on lure was first tested dogs took a couple of runs to acclimatise and it saved one of mine because he was field shy and when he realised all the other dogs were there to have a good time he totally changed and won. I only know about Sandown trials. I am told hoop lure trials are only onto the pen on Saturday mornings and the rest of the time the traditional lure is used for arm trials and all of Wednesday trials are old arm trials. I cannot believe this. Why are they not doing run on trials with the hoop, how the heck are the dogs going to know that they can catch the mother. There will be some excuse I guess, there always is.
The fast, group dog will be the exception but maidens and low grade dogs could have a problem and I feel that dogs not chasing will be a problem because of poor schooling on the new lure system. I am hearing that changes to starting boxes for OHS reasons is on the cards, going to make it difficult to back a dog into a box so everyone will have to buy one and do it at home.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5947 Dogs 8 / Races 0 06 May 2017 23:49
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Perfectly said Charles !
The only part i cant claim to understand is the 'dog type thinking'. My logic is who knows why they do what..........bit like trying to work out why a shark sometimes attacks and sometimes doesn't.
All I know is what the times are telling me.
Geoff Collins wrote:
Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
no there hasn't Geoff.......they introduced the extended arm lure at the Meadows wed meets since the 8/3 that's when I started looking at times for it, but we're talking about 2 different things now.
Ryan .. you quoted Sandown (Thursday night) turnover figures as did I in my response so I presumed that Sandown was the point of discussion ... so yes, there have only been 4 meetings at Sandown main night on the extended arm
Charlie ... I agree that we are well off-topic and that Brett's victory should not be used for Ryan's agenda .. I normally wouldn't reply under those circumstances but it pisses me off that Ryan continually pushes this barrow.........
Geoff I don't have any agenda other than wanting to see dog racing prosper (as I'm sure you do too).
All I know is what the overall and sectional times tell me.
Now there are 2 points and I believe both are connected:
1. The win pools in those last 4 races at Sandown are at an all time low - that concerns me(& assume the ptb) greatly, from a funding point of view.
2. Too many dogs are running inconsistently at the Meadows on the hoop lure since it's inception and I think this has been reflected in the win pools at Sandown when they brought the hoop lure in from the Sunday Sandown meet(23/4 I think) at both city tracks.
Punters will stand back and observe, which is what I believe is happening now. If the dogs are running consistently in 6 - 12 months time after they are used to the extended arm lure system, who knows they may well return, but that's a hell of a risk to take in these times.
My intention isn't to pi$$ you off Geoff, but that's just my call on why I think the win pools are catastrophically low. No agenda.
ian bradshaw wrote:
Sandown now has to compete with Pakenham night racing on a regular basis.....plus throw in AFL thursday night games 23/3 30/3 13/4, it's not hard to see why the Sandown turnover is falling
As for the pub punters, most of them would not know or care about hoop lures, or follow on finishes, etc.
I suppose that's a possibility Ian, but one thing I wld never assume is that punters don't care about what they bet on........they always care when it's their money. There's not much 'dummy money' around nowadays, punters are too well informed.
Michael Floyd Australia (Verified User) Posts 803 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 May 2017 01:42
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I think after two Thursday meetings on the lure it's a little early to draw any firm conclusions about anything, but surely if the hoop lure was a concern, all pools would be down and not just the last 4 races? Tote turnover is always lower at the end of the meeting - there's fewer punters up after 10pm betting on the dogs. Plus, most of the retail network shuts.
Wagering growth is very much in fixed odds betting both through the TAB and corporates and is more prevalent in the last few races I dare say because the retail network essentially closes down. It's a trend across the board and has been happening for some time.
There will be a period of adjustment as there is with any change. Racing certainly appears cleaner which will affect the way you read form, the dogs also seems to track a little wider so it makes sense they're a shade slower. The hoop lure has been in place in other states for some time, the dogs have shown they can adjust, the punters will too.
Let's just take a deep breath
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5947 Dogs 8 / Races 0 07 May 2017 03:37
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quite a few generalisations there Michael.
so you guys are expecting tote win pools to get to what, zero ?
btw i'm pretty sure tri,quinella pools etc., have also been decreasing considerably over the years.........the only thing that will save the guaranteed grv income from the tab is if they merge the pools.
the Meadows wed has been racing on the hoop lure since the 8/3, it's enuf to judge how much times are varying, it's ambitious to think it wld be any different at Sandown imo.
as for the last few races as I've said a no of times never seen the final win pool under 10k other than the last couple of weeks
adjustment yes but if the racing is cleaner because the dogs aren't going as hard as they were(hence slower times) is that we want ? From a punting/pools perspective I think not !
now as for the hoop lure in the other states, looking at the cannington meeting last nite, it's no where near as far out into the centre of the track as it is at the Meadows and Sandown and may well be providing far more consistent racing.
look I'm all for taking a deep breath, just so long as the people that make these decisions aren't taking that breath because their heads are in the sand........recent history doesn't inspire much confidence and punters, they wont hang around waiting for people to get it right, nor will they fill in any surveys.
g/l with your future projects Michael, I don't know how you keep persisting in the face of such adversity, you're an absolute credit to yourself and the industry.
Kevin Murnane Australia (Verified User) Posts 120 Dogs 1 / Races 0 07 May 2017 11:06
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At the end of the day a good dog will chase the sunday paper my experience with the hoop lure can cause grief with young ones most dogs wil course the lure but some go looking for the lure on a corner running off the bend this is only my opinion I have proved it with a dog called Yarramundi jax look at Strathalbyn compared to angle park Strathalbyn is on the arm angle park is on the hoop this is only my opinion
David Plumridge Australia (Verified User) Posts 411 Dogs 563 / Races 127 08 May 2017 03:44
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spot on Mick re parimutel WIN pools - I reckon they have been down for a while or flat lined since the introduction of fixed odds came in on the TAB & corporates;
A question i'm unsure of Mick or Ryan - what is better for GRV in relation to distribution of money back to it from the TAB for prizemoney - a punter having $100 on the parimutel or having it on fixed odds ?
"Tote turnover is always lower at the end of the meeting - there's fewer punters up after 10pm betting on the dogs. Plus, most of the retail network (pub) shuts. Wagering growth is very much in fixed odds betting both through the TAB and corporates and is more prevalent in the last few races I dare say because the retail network essentially closes down. It's a trend across the board and has been happening for some time".
Kev Galloway Australia (Verified User) Posts 2447 Dogs 5 / Races 0 08 May 2017 12:51
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Hoop Lure and greyhound welfare go hand in glove,tote turnover has NOTHING to do with greyhound welfare.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5947 Dogs 8 / Races 0 11 May 2017 12:36
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Struggling to get 7k for the Speed star & 12k for The Lizrene which win pools tonite.......going gangbusters (NOT !)
Only thing that's changed from an actual race perspective is the lure !
Die hard punters.......going, going..........
Michael Floyd Australia (Verified User) Posts 803 Dogs 0 / Races 0 11 May 2017 13:24
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Speed Star is a fixed odds event - went gangbusters again despite the regulatory restrictions TAB operates under.
Wagering growth is in the fixed odds betting
Michael Geraghty Australia (Verified User) Posts 4138 Dogs 14 / Races 15 12 May 2017 00:19
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Michael Floyd wrote:
I think after two Thursday meetings on the lure it's a little early to draw any firm conclusions about anything, but surely if the hoop lure was a concern, all pools would be down and not just the last 4 races? Tote turnover is always lower at the end of the meeting - there's fewer punters up after 10pm betting on the dogs. Plus, most of the retail network shuts.
Wagering growth is very much in fixed odds betting both through the TAB and corporates and is more prevalent in the last few races I dare say because the retail network essentially closes down. It's a trend across the board and has been happening for some time.
There will be a period of adjustment as there is with any change. Racing certainly appears cleaner which will affect the way you read form, the dogs also seems to track a little wider so it makes sense they're a shade slower. The hoop lure has been in place in other states for some time, the dogs have shown they can adjust, the punters will too.
Let's just take a deep breath
This post makes no sense. It's non-sense to think that a commonsense post is made to be non-sense. Stop making sense because it doesn't work in a nonsensical debate. I sense that the sensible will understand the commonsense of commonsense opinion.
Hope this makes sense.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5947 Dogs 8 / Races 0 12 May 2017 02:57
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Michael Floyd wrote:
Speed Star is a fixed odds event - went gangbusters again despite the regulatory restrictions TAB operates under.
Wagering growth is in the fixed odds betting
Ok Michael, what are the fixed price win pools ?
Last yrs Lizrene win pool was $15k............20% down this yr, what's the increased % on the TAB fixed win on the same race ?
Michael Floyd Australia (Verified User) Posts 803 Dogs 0 / Races 0 12 May 2017 03:17
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I don't have all of the numbers and I'm not sure I'm allowed to be sharing that information if I did, but suffice to say the fixed odds turnover was very healthy.
As I said, growth is in fixed odds
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5947 Dogs 8 / Races 0 12 May 2017 06:50
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ok, well my times when the extended hoop lure arm at the meadows provincial meets was used are telling me that dogs are running quite inconsistently at those meets, also the extended hoop is quite restrictive to dogs with certain styles of racing, so grv have lost me, and I wont be betting on Melb greys in the future. thx for the tip re fixed odds.
the trouble in listening to people who think they speak common sense, is that common sense isn't very common.
Michael Geraghty Australia (Verified User) Posts 4138 Dogs 14 / Races 15 12 May 2017 07:12
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
ok, well my times when the extended hoop lure arm at the meadows provincial meets was used are telling me that dogs are running quite inconsistently at those meets, also the extended hoop is quite restrictive to dogs with certain styles of racing, so grv have lost me, and I wont be betting on Melb greys in the future. thx for the tip re fixed odds.
the trouble in listening to people who think they speak common sense, is that common sense isn't very common.
That's the most sensible thing I've read for a while.(the last bit)
I have no doubt that you have compiled extensive data, Ryan. Can you please NAME the most inconsistent dogs at provincial meadows using the hoop please...the top 10 will do, and please give examples of the same dog's form PRIOR to the hoop.
Can you also tell me how the hoop restricts a dog's style v no restrictions on a conventional arm? Please NAME your top 10 "restricted" dogs please.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5947 Dogs 8 / Races 0 13 May 2017 00:58
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Michael, I'm not going to name dogs publicly , that wld be unethical, but i feel we are talking about two different things.
I'm talking about the extended hoop lure arm, you're talking about the hoop lure - two totally different beasts, but I will be looking at racing with the hoop lure as I have been forced rate those meets now if I want to stay involved. Unfortunately for me it'll mean generally looking at a lesser class dog, which isn't anywhere near as interesting.
The standard hoop lure which a couple of states use is different to the extended arm lure(that another 2 states use), in that the latter forces dog to run in the centre of the track. So if you have a strong slow out wide running dog, these types are restricted by seeing so many dogs in front of them in their normal running lanes and therefore their runs are impeded.
So imo the extended arm lure wld prevent us greyhound fans from seeing the the raw ability of dogs such as a My Bro Fabio or an Awesome Assassin type of dog anywhere near as often in the future and prevent these types from winning top class races. The extended arm lure also restricts come from behind dogs along the inside who continually have to baulk (even more than than they did b4), because dogs in front of them are continually heading to the the centre of the track. They don't necessarily stay centre track once they are there. There are some that get thru on the inside on the the extended arm lure, but getting those runs is far less predictable to both dog and punter.
Michael Geraghty Australia (Verified User) Posts 4138 Dogs 14 / Races 15 13 May 2017 03:18
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
Michael, I'm not going to name dogs publicly , that wld be unethical, but i feel we are talking about two different things.
I'm talking about the extended hoop lure arm, you're talking about the hoop lure - two totally different beasts, but I will be looking at racing with the hoop lure as I have been forced rate those meets now if I want to stay involved. Unfortunately for me it'll mean generally looking at a lesser class dog, which isn't anywhere near as interesting.
The standard hoop lure which a couple of states use is different to the extended arm lure(that another 2 states use), in that the latter forces dog to run in the centre of the track. So if you have a strong slow out wide running dog, these types are restricted by seeing so many dogs in front of them in their normal running lanes and therefore their runs are impeded.
So imo the extended arm lure wld prevent us greyhound fans from seeing the the raw ability of dogs such as a My Bro Fabio or an Awesome Assassin type of dog anywhere near as often in the future and prevent these types from winning top class races. The extended arm lure also restricts come from behind dogs along the inside who continually have to baulk (even more than than they did b4), because dogs in front of them are continually heading to the the centre of the track. They don't necessarily stay centre track once they are there. There are some that get thru on the inside on the the extended arm lure, but getting those runs is far less predictable to both dog and punter.
Ryan, no, I'm talking about the hoop that YOU were talking about at the Meadows provincial. I might have missed your terminology of EXTENDED, apologies for that.
Now there is nothing unethical about naming dogs who you think are adversely affected by this monstrous extended hoop lure. Dogs are named in steward reports for far worse convictions than running a little wide or baulked. You made a statement so prove it. You might even help those connections of these dogs as they may no be observant as your good self. Name away...no bloody ethics involved at all! On that premise, a steward shouldn't name a fighter.
Now, I race in QLD which I'm pretty sure has, what you coin, an extended lure. Is that correct? Which states are the ones you refer to as having the extended, and which states are the ones you refer to with standard hoops? Also, what is the measurement between standard and extended?
Cheers.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5947 Dogs 8 / Races 0 13 May 2017 05:04
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Thx for the apology Michael, however not necessary. I appreciate you coming fwd and trying to understand the situation.
I'm not interested in naming dogs publicly, I'm telling you what I've found. Some will believe me, some wont, at the end of the day the decision has already been made, so it's a mute point.
It's just extremely disappointing from my perspective that I can't rate the fastest dogs racing in Aus anymore due to a decision being made for what I deem, no reason at all, other than to follow an American lure system which has been proven many times over will not provide a racing standard we are used to, going on the no of US racedogs that have been brought here to race. I can't remember too many that have raced here on the normal lure that had BOTH,'run thru a brick wall' type chase AND top city grade ability.
Wldn't the ultimate test of this gr8 extended lure arm system have been to find a dog in the US that wld prove to be a top race dog in Vic ? Then they cld categorically claim it's not detrimental to our way of racing AND it's safer, but they can't claim that, yet went ahead and introduced the extended hoop lure arm anyway. There have been many come from the US to race in Vic and many go, without meeting that 'run thru a brick wall' type chase AND city grade ability criteria imo.
So where's the sense then in bringing in an extended arm lure system here, if that's the case ?
Anyway as I said, the decision has been made, TAB win pools are in the 'shizen' and the public cant get access to fixed price betting figures to find out where we stand, yet onward we go into the maze.
And no you wldn't be correct in stating that about Qld. Give me a call if you wish to discuss it further. cheers.
Michael Geraghty Australia (Verified User) Posts 4138 Dogs 14 / Races 15 13 May 2017 08:40
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
Thx for the apology Michael, however not necessary. I appreciate you coming fwd and trying to understand the situation.
I'm not interested in naming dogs publicly, I'm telling you what I've found. Some will believe me, some wont, at the end of the day the decision has already been made, so it's a mute point.
It's just extremely disappointing from my perspective that I can't rate the fastest dogs racing in Aus anymore due to a decision being made for what I deem, no reason at all, other than to follow an American lure system which has been proven many times over will not provide a racing standard we are used to, going on the no of US racedogs that have been brought here to race. I can't remember too many that have raced here on the normal lure that had BOTH,'run thru a brick wall' type chase AND top city grade ability.
Wldn't the ultimate test of this gr8 extended lure arm system have been to find a dog in the US that wld prove to be a top race dog in Vic ? Then they cld categorically claim it's not detrimental to our way of racing AND it's safer, but they can't claim that, yet went ahead and introduced the extended hoop lure arm anyway. There have been many come from the US to race in Vic and many go, without meeting that 'run thru a brick wall' type chase AND city grade ability criteria imo.
So where's the sense then in bringing in an extended arm lure system here, if that's the case ?
Anyway as I said, the decision has been made, TAB win pools are in the 'shizen' and the public cant get access to fixed price betting figures to find out where we stand, yet onward we go into the maze.
And no you wldn't be correct in stating that about Qld. Give me a call if you wish to discuss it further. cheers.
Ryan, This whole argument of yours is mute because you have not produced one ounce of proof. How do you expect anyone to engage on a level when there is only "Ryan says so" as proof? Love your passion but put forward an argument that is backed by facts. I think you are giving way way too much credit to the average punter who makes up the majority. I have not heard one punter, or trainer for that matter, that's had a conversation like: "Ya havin a bet on the next at the Meadows, Bazza?" "Ya gotta be kiddin, Johno. Mate, they're using that bloody extended hoop lure, which is about 10cm longer! Well, bloody hell...the 8 is a slow starter and a wide runna, mate, so in theory he will have to cover about 9 extra inches over the 520m mate. The one, mate, tends to rail good but he might follow the others to the middle with that bloody thingy...well, then all hell breaks loose! The Meadows? Not onya life, mate. There's a corner start at Ippy in 5, get on tha 1, certainty mate, the lure there is 10cm more to tha rail, mate..." "Yeah, glad you told me that, Bazza."
I'll say no more except there is a little buzz thing called WELFARE atm and some are trying to improve it. Any theories about unproven consequences to reliability of form with the hoop lure will be ignored, as they should be. If you ever have one of your dogs get put down with smashed up legs because of a corner start or a widely drawn dog that crashes the whole field to get to the rail, you might change your priorities. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, Ryan.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5947 Dogs 8 / Races 0 13 May 2017 15:38
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here's 10 inconsistent examples trying to make as similar a case in their extended hoop arm vs normal lure runs as possible:
Dog A ex-hoop lure: 30.50; 5.07; 25.43; 12.87 2 wks earlier:30.26; 5.10; 25.16; 12.76
Dog B ex-hoop lure: 30.29; 5.16; 25.13 3 days later: 30.15; 5.25; 24.90
Dog C ex-hoop lure: 34.47; 9.20; 25.28; 12.97 4 days later: 34.56; 9.67; 24.89; 14.08 the second run was at Sandown where the times are approx 1.5 lens faster than the Meadows, so the Sandown run is approx 34.65 as a comparison, this dogs time have gone the opposite way to what you wld expect.
Dog D ex-hoop lure: 34.87; 8.89; 25.98; 13.03 8 day later : 34.43; 9.16; 25.27; 14.16 the second run was at Sandown where the times are approx 1.5 lens faster than the Meadows, so the Sandown run is approx 34.52 as a comparison.
Dog E ex-hoop lure:30.30; 5.19; 25.11; 12.90 4wks earlier:30.13; 5.15; 24.98
Dog F ex-hoop lure:30.09; 5.30; 24.79 2mth earlier:30.34; 5.24; 25.11 these times have gone the opposite way, so can assume the dog has improved, but seeing the hoop lure is generally a slower time by say ave 3 lens over 500m that wld mean the dog has found 7 lens in 4 wks. I've never seen that happen before(can improve 5 lens max imo in that period of time).
Dog G ex-hoop lure:30.46; 5.09; 25.37; 12.98 5wks earlier:30.21; 5.07; 25.14; 12.88
Dog H ex-hoop lure:30.40; 5.21; 25.19 11dysEarlier:30.10; 5.09; 25.01
Dog I ex-hoop lure:30.23; 5.30; 24.92 20dysEarlier:29.55; 5.27; 24.28; 13.73 second run was at Sandown approx 8lens difference in times so 29.55 Sandown is approx 30.05 Meadows
Michael this has nothing to do with welfare. I've been rating dogs at Sandown/Meadows for I don't know how long(my last spread sheet goes back almost 10 yrs with over 15,000 ratings), and the last serious accident with a lure I've seen on a city race night was in the 80's at Olympic Park where a maiden bitch ran over the lure arm that stopped dead at the winning post the first time around, the whole field ran over it and she broke her leg.......absolutely terrible, but accidents will happen, that's the nature of racing, and I've had a bitch I bred and another I raced both put down at the Meadows with broken hocks, they are the only 2 tragic incidents of well over 100 dogs I've been involved with as an owner......the term racing itself implies 'the fastest' not 'near enough to the fastest', and yes there is risk, but that is no reason at all to justify this extended hoop lure.
btw those 10 dogs run were only in 4 wks of introducing the ex-hoop lure at the Meadows.......I gave up after that, and haven't rated an ex-hoop lure meeting since.
Kev Galloway Australia (Verified User) Posts 2447 Dogs 5 / Races 0 13 May 2017 21:32
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
here's 10 inconsistent examples trying to make as similar a case in their extended hoop arm vs normal lure runs as possible:
Dog A ex-hoop lure: 30.50; 5.07; 25.43; 12.87 2 wks earlier:30.26; 5.10; 25.16; 12.76
Dog B ex-hoop lure: 30.29; 5.16; 25.13 3 days later: 30.15; 5.25; 24.90
Dog C ex-hoop lure: 34.47; 9.20; 25.28; 12.97 4 days later: 34.56; 9.67; 24.89; 14.08 the second run was at Sandown where the times are approx 1.5 lens faster than the Meadows, so the Sandown run is approx 34.65 as a comparison, this dogs time have gone the opposite way to what you wld expect.
Dog D ex-hoop lure: 34.87; 8.89; 25.98; 13.03 8 day later : 34.43; 9.16; 25.27; 14.16 the second run was at Sandown where the times are approx 1.5 lens faster than the Meadows, so the Sandown run is approx 34.52 as a comparison.
Dog E ex-hoop lure:30.30; 5.19; 25.11; 12.90 4wks earlier:30.13; 5.15; 24.98
Dog F ex-hoop lure:30.09; 5.30; 24.79 2mth earlier:30.34; 5.24; 25.11 these times have gone the opposite way, so can assume the dog has improved, but seeing the hoop lure is generally a slower time by say ave 3 lens over 500m that wld mean the dog has found 7 lens in 4 wks. I've never seen that happen before(can improve 5 lens max imo in that period of time).
Dog G ex-hoop lure:30.46; 5.09; 25.37; 12.98 5wks earlier:30.21; 5.07; 25.14; 12.88
Dog H ex-hoop lure:30.40; 5.21; 25.19 11dysEarlier:30.10; 5.09; 25.01
Dog I ex-hoop lure:30.23; 5.30; 24.92 20dysEarlier:29.55; 5.27; 24.28; 13.73 second run was at Sandown approx 8lens difference in times so 29.55 Sandown is approx 30.05 Meadows
Michael this has nothing to do with welfare. I've been rating dogs at Sandown/Meadows for I don't know how long(my last spread sheet goes back almost 10 yrs with over 15,000 ratings), and the last serious accident with a lure I've seen on a city race night was in the 80's at Olympic Park where a maiden bitch ran over the lure arm that stopped dead at the winning post the first time around, the whole field ran over it and she broke her leg.......absolutely terrible, but accidents will happen, that's the nature of racing, and I've had a bitch I bred and another I raced both put down at the Meadows with broken hocks, they are the only 2 tragic incidents of well over 100 dogs I've been involved with as an owner......the term racing itself implies 'the fastest' not 'near enough to the fastest', and yes there is risk, but that is no reason at all to justify this extended hoop lure.
btw those 10 dogs run were only in 4 wks of introducing the ex-hoop lure at the Meadows.......I gave up after that, and haven't rated an ex-hoop lure meeting since.
Ryan,the hoop lure has EVERYTHING to do with WELFARE,it is to STOP greyhounds getting smashed by the killer arm.