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TOORADIN LIVE BATING DEBACLE 3 YEARS ON page  1 2 3 

Bill Deguara
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 215
Dogs 2 / Races 0

15 Feb 2018 06:13


 (5)
 (0)


Mark Donohue wrote:

Bruce Teague wrote:

Tony,

You can classify most of the other Libs as weak rather than opposed to greyhounds in that they toed a (supposed) party line in the hope of future promotion.

.... And some Lib/NP people did strongly support greyhounds, despite the threat from Baird/Grant.

Nice mention of support Dribble for this group of cowards, the LIB/NAT. Some, only a handful (so dont give them too much credit) who did cross the floor were demoted. What a narrow-minded low Party.

wE ALL KNOW THAT TO BECOME A POLITICIAN ONE MUST FIRSTLY TAKE AN OATH , NEVER TO TELL THE TRUTH,STAB ANYONE INCLUDING YOUR PARENTS IN THE BACK TO ACHIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.BECOME A JUDAS BY BETRAYNG NOT ONLY YOUR MATES BUT ALSO YOUR PARTY LEADER AT ANY GIVEN TIME,BREAK AS MANY PROMISES AS POSSIBLE WITHOUT FEAR OF LOSING YOUR SEAT.BE A HYPOCRATE BY SAYING ONE THING AND MEANING ANOTHER,CHEAT AND ABUSE YOUR SEAT AND YOUR POSITION AS MUCH AS YOU CAN AND IF YOU ACHIEVE ALL THE ABOVE YOU HAVE A GREAT CHANCE OF BECOMING PRIME MINISTER,



Mitchell Tubinas
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 813
Dogs 11 / Races 1

15 Feb 2018 08:25


 (2)
 (0)


Like x 100
bill deguara wrote:

Mark Donohue wrote:

Bruce Teague wrote:

Tony,

You can classify most of the other Libs as weak rather than opposed to greyhounds in that they toed a (supposed) party line in the hope of future promotion.

.... And some Lib/NP people did strongly support greyhounds, despite the threat from Baird/Grant.

Nice mention of support Dribble for this group of cowards, the LIB/NAT. Some, only a handful (so dont give them too much credit) who did cross the floor were demoted. What a narrow-minded low Party.

wE ALL KNOW THAT TO BECOME A POLITICIAN ONE MUST FIRSTLY TAKE AN OATH , NEVER TO TELL THE TRUTH,STAB ANYONE INCLUDING YOUR PARENTS IN THE BACK TO ACHIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.BECOME A JUDAS BY BETRAYNG NOT ONLY YOUR MATES BUT ALSO YOUR PARTY LEADER AT ANY GIVEN TIME,BREAK AS MANY PROMISES AS POSSIBLE WITHOUT FEAR OF LOSING YOUR SEAT.BE A HYPOCRATE BY SAYING ONE THING AND MEANING ANOTHER,CHEAT AND ABUSE YOUR SEAT AND YOUR POSITION AS MUCH AS YOU CAN AND IF YOU ACHIEVE ALL THE ABOVE YOU HAVE A GREAT CHANCE OF BECOMING PRIME MINISTER,





Ross Brook
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 46
Dogs 2 / Races 0

16 Feb 2018 03:15


 (0)
 (8)


charles w mizzi wrote:

Hayden Gilders wrote:

Graeme Euvrard received a life disqualification for using road kill last week. Nobody took a second look

Welfare issues have caused life disqualifications to a couple of others

Scenting the lure caused the loss of another one

These didn't even make a ripple in the pond

Has the industry moved on ??

Hayden, This all starts with Tooradin and the mishandling of the whole situation by GRV from the top down, The top guy and board fell on their swords to take the wrap, yet many other GRV employee's responsible for keeping their eyes on things still retain their pay packets.

NAME NAMES IF YOU KNOW BECAUSE IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON
TIME HEALS ALL PEOPLE HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO THAN GO ON A WITCH HUNT OR DO YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO




Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

17 Feb 2018 00:30


 (8)
 (0)


Ross Brook wrote:

charles w mizzi wrote:

Hayden Gilders wrote:

Graeme Euvrard received a life disqualification for using road kill last week. Nobody took a second look

Welfare issues have caused life disqualifications to a couple of others

Scenting the lure caused the loss of another one

These didn't even make a ripple in the pond

Has the industry moved on ??

Hayden, This all starts with Tooradin and the mishandling of the whole situation by GRV from the top down, The top guy and board fell on their swords to take the wrap, yet many other GRV employee's responsible for keeping their eyes on things still retain their pay packets.

NAME NAMES IF YOU KNOW BECAUSE IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON
TIME HEALS ALL PEOPLE HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO THAN GO ON A WITCH HUNT OR DO YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO


I see you are from down Colac way.

Have you ever trialled at Tooradin when it was operating?

Do you know the GRV stewards that visited/inspected this GRV registered track on many occasions? If you were a local you would know who the are. Names are not required, they know who they are.

And who are you to say it is time to move on? Do you know any of the people personally that have been disqualified? Does it matter that 75% of the people charged are innocent and were railroaded. GRV would not do that you say, heaven help you when the day comes.

Time may heal and in this case GRV made a shemozzle of the situation and purely lumped people all together for a public crucifixion to appease the voting public.

If people have other things to do, then go do them. This is far from a witch hunt it is a quest for justice that many are involved in because they know what has transpired.

This is an election year and we will be full on till November to have a new racing minister and that minister will be well informed, if he isn't already.



Ross Farmer
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 208
Dogs 0 / Races 1

18 Feb 2018 03:11


 (5)
 (0)


Ross Brook wrote:

NAME NAMES IF YOU KNOW BECAUSE IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON
TIME HEALS ALL PEOPLE HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO THAN GO ON A WITCH HUNT OR DO YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO

It is obvious that some of those charged strongly believe they have variously been subject to a witch-hunt, suffered an injustice, perhaps lost their livelihood, ostracised by the industry, and been financially monstered in the process, and are at a loss as to what they can do.

In their position, would you feel differently, and just suck it up, and feel happy that you are an acceptable loss for the good of the industry?

Perhaps the point is whether such things should be properly followed through, or whether the I'm alright Jack attitude prevails.



Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

18 Feb 2018 23:42


 (2)
 (0)


charles w mizzi wrote:

Ross Brook wrote:

charles w mizzi wrote:

Hayden Gilders wrote:

Graeme Euvrard received a life disqualification for using road kill last week. Nobody took a second look

Welfare issues have caused life disqualifications to a couple of others

Scenting the lure caused the loss of another one

These didn't even make a ripple in the pond

Has the industry moved on ??

Hayden, This all starts with Tooradin and the mishandling of the whole situation by GRV from the top down, The top guy and board fell on their swords to take the wrap, yet many other GRV employee's responsible for keeping their eyes on things still retain their pay packets.

NAME NAMES IF YOU KNOW BECAUSE IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON
TIME HEALS ALL PEOPLE HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO THAN GO ON A WITCH HUNT OR DO YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO


I see you are from down Colac way.

Have you ever trialled at Tooradin when it was operating?

Do you know the GRV stewards that visited/inspected this GRV registered track on many occasions? If you were a local you would know who the are. Names are not required, they know who they are.

And who are you to say it is time to move on? Do you know any of the people personally that have been disqualified? Does it matter that 75% of the people charged are innocent and were railroaded. GRV would not do that you say, heaven help you when the day comes.

Time may heal and in this case GRV made a shemozzle of the situation and purely lumped people all together for a public crucifixion to appease the voting public.

If people have other things to do, then go do them. This is far from a witch hunt it is a quest for justice that many are involved in because they know what has transpired.

This is an election year and we will be full on till November to have a new racing minister and that minister will be well informed, if he isn't already.


What, no response Ross, all views are valued especially if they are coming from an informed space.



Anthony McVicker
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1438
Dogs 24 / Races 126

01 Mar 2018 07:50


 (6)
 (2)


This is case GRV could npt afford to lose and they made sure it went all the way to the supreme court with an unlimited budget.

Despite the rspca, police, Vcat and local courts either finding no evidence or not guilty and or dropping all charges, GRV have been intent on ruin a few people/families just to make a point.

All this relates to trialling at a GRV licenced and monitored trial track. Where is their accountability ?

GRV = DISGRACEFUL

Watch out participants it's call ABSOLUTE OR STRICT LIABILITY


Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

02 Mar 2018 00:15


 (1)
 (0)


Anthony McVicker wrote:

This is case GRV could npt afford to lose and they made sure it went all the way to the supreme court with an unlimited budget.

Despite the rspca, police, Vcat and local courts either finding no evidence or not guilty and or dropping all charges, GRV have been intent on ruin a few people/families just to make a point.

All this relates to trialling at a GRV licenced and monitored trial track. Where is their accountability ?

GRV = DISGRACEFUL

Watch out participants it's call ABSOLUTE OR STRICT LIABILITY

WATCH THIS SPACE. MAYBE SOME ITERESTING TIMES AHEAD!!!





Anthony McVicker
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1438
Dogs 24 / Races 126

02 Mar 2018 07:05


 (3)
 (0)


Charles

They have too much money and power, common sense and practicality have no place in the industry anymore.

Participants are just pawns at the mercy of GRV




Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

02 Mar 2018 07:55


 (5)
 (0)


Anthony McVicker wrote:

Charles

They have too much money and power, common sense and practicality have no place in the industry anymore.

Participants are just pawns at the mercy of GRV

You may believe that, but I, and many others do not and we have been chipping away, chipping away, chipping away and we will keep doing so till the election in November.

The Paul Anderton Supreme Court decision on Wednesday has opened the door for some challenges across just about all the RADB and VCAT decisions. GRV opened the Pandora's Box when they chose to pursue people as an example to the rest of the industry. These participants were collectively called criminals well before any inquiry or RADB hearing was conducted and were virtually trialled by media. The Police and the RSPCA dropped and withdrew charges for obvious reasons but GRV attacked innocent people to deflect responsibility away from themselves. Justice must be done.

What saddens me is that many participants go on as usual with their hands in their pockets in silence.




Anthony McVicker
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1438
Dogs 24 / Races 126

03 Mar 2018 06:49


 (2)
 (1)


Paul's case proves my point and the result didn't open anything, it closed the last out opportunity any participant had


Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

03 Mar 2018 08:43


 (1)
 (0)


Anthony McVicker wrote:

Paul's case proves my point and the result didn't open anything, it closed the last out opportunity any participant had

Ok, whatever you say Anthony, just watch this thread in the future and maybe you might see a miracle happen.


Ross Farmer
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 208
Dogs 0 / Races 1

03 Mar 2018 09:41


 (5)
 (0)


Anthony McVicker wrote:

Paul's case proves my point and the result didn't open anything, it closed the last out opportunity any participant had

I beg to differ.

The decision of the Supreme Court in respect of Paul Anderton indicated that offences under rules relevant to the charges are offences of strict liability . In the VCAT decision, these offences were deemed to be ordinary liability offences.

No decision on the basis of strict liability was made, but an instruction for VCAT to rehear the case on the basis of strict liability.

What this means is best understood by firstly distinguishing between ordinary liability, strict liability and absolute liability. I offer my oversimplified (& non-legal) understanding of what these mean.

Under ordinary liability, GRV must prove that there was an intention to live bait eg through actions, words etc. Obviously not proven at VCAT in Paul Anderton's case.

Under strict liability, if a live rabbit is proven to have been used, there is a defence of "honest & reasonable mistaken belief" available. In summary, everything indicated to the trainer that it was a normal compliant trial. (Such things as; the indications were the rabbit was dead, went as a normal customer, paid the normal fee, my focus was my dogs, under the Rules track operations including all aspects of the lure are a track manager responsibility, I don't interfere in the operation of a trial).

Under absolute liability, if a live rabbit is proven to have been used, there is no such defence available.

My understanding of the live baiting cases (though haven't checked all) is offences were deemed to be absolute liability offences for all the RADB cases, and for all VCAT cases, except for Paul Anderton and Brett Mackie where ordinary liability was applied.

None applied strict liability.

So it seems that both the RADB and VCAT got this aspect wrong in every case, to the detriment of all defendants. This was despite considerable legal representative time spent on addressing the question of what type of liability is relevant.

All this is sloppy at best, or a legal atrocity in terms of consequences for defendants.

It could, and in my opinion, should have been prevented by clarification of the nature of offences in the drafting stage of the rules, and inclusion in notations, as is the practice for most legislation (eg the Corporations Act).

It is done in other racing jurisdictions (From memory, Canadian harness racing rules is an example), and the failure to do so has had severe adverse financial implications for those charged (but a bonanza for lawyers).

It now seems that Paul Anderton must now rely on the defence of honest and reasonable mistake, though there are also mitigating factors that were also not considered in the RADB decision that may be able to be considered.

Brett Mackie had already served his disqualification under the RADB decision that deemed the offence to be one of absolute liability, when he appealed to clear his name and won. It would seem pointless for this to be revisited.

For everyone else, where absolute liability (ie no defence of mistaken belief applies), fairness should provide the opportunity for their case to be reheard on a strict liability basis (as per the Paul Anderton decision). In their case, this would be a positive, as a rehearing by VCAT on the same basis as Paul Anderton should now be an option, and the defence of honest and reasonable mistake can now be used.

I consider that not only has the Supreme Court judge finally got this aspect right, she was both astute and fair.

Reverting the case back to VCAT to be reheard means that the Supreme Court will not be clagged with appeals (and the associated costs to the public purse via the court system and indirectly via GRV), and it has given the opportunity for a lower cost opportunity for a rehearing to those charged instead of an appeal to the Supreme Court

An additional point that has not been clearly made out throughout all live baiting cases is the extent to which an offence has been committed by both the track operator and a participant, or just the track operator.

A practical reading of the rules relevant to trial tracks indicates that participants cannot involve themselves in any management activity of a trial track unless registered as a track manager or assistant manager. Effectively it means that trial track activity is the responsibility of the manager or assistant manager.

A question that has seemed not to have been addressed is whether a participant is using or causing to use a (deemed to be) live animal if he is there just as a customer, and it is the track operator who is the only person engaged in live baiting.

In other words, is just being a customer of someone who breaches a rule enough to constitute 'using or causing to use' a live animal?

Responsibilities, including those of regulators, should be clear, but are not.

It would be interesting to compare current footage (not staged) of a trial at a private track and compare it to the Tooradin footage used as evidence, and compare the actions of those trialling their dogs.

The Supreme Court decision does seem to give strong push for the revision of the disciplinary and legal framework as covered in the Paul Bittar report. As does the recent decision regarding cobalt in racing.

This report has been parked since April 2016.



Anthony McVicker
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1438
Dogs 24 / Races 126

03 Mar 2018 09:56


 (2)
 (0)


Charles I know exactly where your going, and short term it may help some people (and recent offenders), but long term the posts will change and the word a-s-l-t- will be amended to cover all rules and breaches and then participants are stuffed


Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

03 Mar 2018 22:44


 (4)
 (1)


Anthony, the goal posts will move, however not in the direction you think they will go. We have had the ear of the Shadow Racing Minister for over a year, he is fully aware of the style of leadership all 3 codes have demonstrated. RVL the worst. If we cannot move this current Government and Racing Minister on there will be nothing to save as they are in bed with the Greens and we know their agenda.

My belief is a VOTE FOR LABOR IS A VOTE FOR THE GREENS in Victoria.

GRV/GA have already started with the over regulation for the last 18 months, this has been politically driven to appease the Greens. They are under estimating the greyhound vote. Greyhound people generally are Labor voters, all of the ones I know will not be voting that way again. Labor got in by a smidgen just before Tooradin broke. My electorate will be the sounding board I reckon, Labor held but only just and the sitting member has withdrawn for health reasons but I also think because he knows he is gone. You guys in NSW's are going to be hit even harder because the current Govt believe this will help them in the 2019 election. I would be getting a clear message from the Shadow Minister what policy they will be adopting, has anybody met with this person?

You also have people within the ranks that will not be helping the industries cause for their own self interest, just a view seen from afar.

Ross Farmer has posted, Ross has a background in corporate governance and also has had much communication with people who will make a difference down the track.

Cheers


Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

18 Mar 2018 00:22


 (4)
 (0)


charles w mizzi wrote:

Anthony, the goal posts will move, however not in the direction you think they will go. We have had the ear of the Shadow Racing Minister for over a year, he is fully aware of the style of leadership all 3 codes have demonstrated. RVL the worst. If we cannot move this current Government and Racing Minister on there will be nothing to save as they are in bed with the Greens and we know their agenda.

My belief is a VOTE FOR LABOR IS A VOTE FOR THE GREENS in Victoria.

GRV/GA have already started with the over regulation for the last 18 months, this has been politically driven to appease the Greens. They are under estimating the greyhound vote. Greyhound people generally are Labor voters, all of the ones I know will not be voting that way again. Labor got in by a smidgen just before Tooradin broke. My electorate will be the sounding board I reckon, Labor held but only just and the sitting member has withdrawn for health reasons but I also think because he knows he is gone. You guys in NSW's are going to be hit even harder because the current Govt believe this will help them in the 2019 election. I would be getting a clear message from the Shadow Minister what policy they will be adopting, has anybody met with this person?

You also have people within the ranks that will not be helping the industries cause for their own self interest, just a view seen from afar.

Ross Farmer has posted, Ross has a background in corporate governance and also has had much communication with people who will make a difference down the track.

Cheers

It comes in three's! Tasmania, Batman, South Australia. Three massive defeats for the Greens. Maybe now the ruling parties will disregard there inner city wishes and make policy for the masses rather than to stay in power.

Victorian Labor is next, bring on November. Ignore the majority at your peril.



Kevin Wright
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 5708
Dogs 1 / Races 1

18 Mar 2018 06:44


 (5)
 (0)


Ross once again your comments and support have helped a lot of people in the Industry and will continue to do so for years to come ..

Charles...Keep plugging away Mate . We will have our time in the sun to shine once we SPAM every Social Media site possible ....We have the numbers and we have the man power with Social Media....

Word of warning for all present PTB and Government bodies controlling racing ....

We are here and we all will VOTE ......so start looking for new jobs come 2019 ...




Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

18 Mar 2018 08:09


 (2)
 (0)


Kevin Wright wrote:

Ross once again your comments and support have helped a lot of people in the Industry and will continue to do so for years to come ..

Charles...Keep plugging away Mate . We will have our time in the sun to shine once we SPAM every Social Media site possible ....We have the numbers and we have the man power with Social Media....

Word of warning for all present PTB and Government bodies controlling racing ....

We are here and we all will VOTE ......so start looking for new jobs come 2019 ...


Thanks Kevin, we keep chipping away.



Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

19 Mar 2018 23:20


 (3)
 (0)


GRV = ANIMAL WELFARE..........NOT ! LOOKING AFTER THEIR IMAGE under the guise of animal welfare, and they are not the industry, the participants are who have been looking after their animals since the inception of greyhound racing.

GRV sent a dog home with a snapped leg to conform with a target professed by the CEO of no euthanasia only for it to be euthanized the next morning.

Sorry I cannot stop thinking about it, it has bothered me so much that the dog had to endure pain and suffering for any period of time to satisfy a target goal. Makes an already dead rabbit at Tooradin seem insignificant.




Kevin Wright
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 5708
Dogs 1 / Races 1

19 Mar 2018 23:46


 (1)
 (0)


charles w mizzi wrote:

GRV = ANIMAL WELFARE..........NOT ! LOOKING AFTER THEIR IMAGE under the guise of animal welfare, and they are not the industry, the participants are who have been looking after their animals since the inception of greyhound racing.

GRV sent a dog home with a snapped leg to conform with a target professed by the CEO of no euthanasia only for it to be euthanized the next morning.

I would be emailing the Shadow Racing Minster about this Charles
Sorry I cannot stop thinking about it, it has bothered me so much that the dog had to endure pain and suffering for any period of time to satisfy a target goal. Makes an already dead rabbit at Tooradin seem insignificant.


Charles i agree totally...

The GRV and the Track Vet and the Stewards should be held accountable for there actions in this case .

This illustrates to everyone that the GRV do not even follow there own rules in regards to Greyhounds suffering in pain .

This dog should not of endured any pain or suffering FULL STOP ..

I believe there should be a Enquiry into the actions of the track Vet and the Stewards on track at the time of the incident ..

Charles ...I would also pass on your concerns to the Shadow Racing Minister

posts 57page  1 2 3