home - to The Greyhound-Database
Home  |  Dog-Search  |  Dogs ID  |  Races  |  Race Cards  |  Coursing  |  Tracks  |  Statistic  |  Testmating  |  Kennels  
 
   SHOP
Facebook
Login  |  Private Messages  |  add_race  |  add_coursing  |  add_dog  |  Membership  |  Advertising  | Ask the Vet  | Memorials    Help  print pedigree      
TV  |  Active-Sires  |  Sire-Pages  |  Stud Dogs  |  Which Sire?  |  Classifieds  |  Auctions  |  Videos  |  Adoption  |  Forum  |  About_us  |  Site Usage

Welcome to the Greyhound Knowledge Forum

   

The Greyhound-Data Forum has been created to act as a platform for greyhound enthusiasts to share information on this magnificent animal called a greyhound.

Greyhound-Data reserve the right to remove any post that is off topic, advertisements or opinions they consider to be offensive.

Please read the forum usage manual please note:

If you answer then please try to stay on topic. It's absolutely okay to answer in a broader scope but don't hijack posts by switching to something off topic.

In case you see an insulting post: DO NOT REPLY TO IT!
Use the report button to inform the moderators so that we can delete it.

Read more...

All TopicsFor SaleGD-WebsiteBreedingHealthRacingCoursingRetirementBettingTalkLogin to post
Do you have questions about greyhound racing?
Do you need advice on how to train a greyhound?

Welfare reforms off target

Trevor Hagney
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 81
Dogs 0 / Races 0

01 Apr 2018 01:54


 (18)
 (0)


Seems that most greyhound welfare reforms being rammed through by state and national bodies are aimed directly at humans, not at the greyhound itself. From GA wanting to ban most therapeutic drugs with no consultation or published research papers,to state authorities setting very low threshholds on naturally occurring environmental elements. On face value, it would look like these measures have been taken to stop humans flaunting racing rules.Most products that are under scrutiny have been used for advantage on other animals by other codes,hence the scepticism that these new rulings are politically motivated.
Authorities are spending vast amounts on animal behavior,track conditions and biometrics,participant education but to date nothing has been mentioned about the vetinary physiology of the greyhound itself.
Interesting greyhound facts-
Greyhounds and salukis are deemed to have come from the same ancestral dog in Persia circa 5000 bc.As such any inherent traits cannot be changed short term.
A greyhounds physiological make up is that peculiar it falls outside the reference range of all other dog breeds. eg
1.Blood volume-greyhound 11.4% of body weight- other breeds 7%
2.Red blood cell count-50-63%,all other breeds would be considered extremely sick with this count
3.Kidney serum concentrations -well outside the reference range of all other breeds
4.Body fat-greyhound 16%,other breeds around 30%
5.Unique blood type-50-70% of greyhounds are "universal" blood donors,compared to less than 20% of other breeds.
6.Lower thyroxine (T4) levels, well outside the reference range of other breeds.
7.Physically larger heart-very large left ventricle for pumping blood around the body
8.Much higher blood pressure than other breeds.
9.Greyhounds do not metabolize drugs as well as other breeds.
Truely a unique breed.

Unfortunately,eminent greyhound vetinarians are not being listened to while these new "welfare policies" are being formulated.Some are walking away from the industry.

Without consultation with experts INSIDE the industry,the formulation of new policies may actually put the welfare of the greyhound at a pronounced risk.




Charles W Mizzi
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 684
Dogs 1 / Races 1

01 Apr 2018 03:02


 (8)
 (0)


Trevor Hagney wrote:

Seems that most greyhound welfare reforms being rammed through by state and national bodies are aimed directly at humans, not at the greyhound itself. From GA wanting to ban most therapeutic drugs with no consultation or published research papers,to state authorities setting very low threshholds on naturally occurring environmental elements. On face value, it would look like these measures have been taken to stop humans flaunting racing rules.Most products that are under scrutiny have been used for advantage on other animals by other codes,hence the scepticism that these new rulings are politically motivated.
Authorities are spending vast amounts on animal behavior,track conditions and biometrics,participant education but to date nothing has been mentioned about the vetinary physiology of the greyhound itself.
Interesting greyhound facts-
Greyhounds and salukis are deemed to have come from the same ancestral dog in Persia circa 5000 bc.As such any inherent traits cannot be changed short term.
A greyhounds physiological make up is that peculiar it falls outside the reference range of all other dog breeds. eg
1.Blood volume-greyhound 11.4% of body weight- other breeds 7%
2.Red blood cell count-50-63%,all other breeds would be considered extremely sick with this count
3.Kidney serum concentrations -well outside the reference range of all other breeds
4.Body fat-greyhound 16%,other breeds around 30%
5.Unique blood type-50-70% of greyhounds are "universal" blood donors,compared to less than 20% of other breeds.
6.Lower thyroxine (T4) levels, well outside the reference range of other breeds.
7.Physically larger heart-very large left ventricle for pumping blood around the body
8.Much higher blood pressure than other breeds.
9.Greyhounds do not metabolize drugs as well as other breeds.
Truely a unique breed.

Unfortunately,eminent greyhound vetinarians are not being listened to while these new "welfare policies" are being formulated.Some are walking away from the industry.

Without consultation with experts INSIDE the industry,the formulation of new policies may actually put the welfare of the greyhound at a pronounced risk.


It has put Greyhounds at risk and sadly it is not something that can be measured.

They listen to the people saying things they want to hear to justify their jobs. They would be unemployable in the real world of profit and loss. Public servants just get moved around. Where are all the ex Chief Stewards, they are still there. Why are they not Chief Stewards any longer?

Prevention is better than cure they say, but now using things that are not drugs gives you a chance of a positive, so trainers will not take that risk. Now the dog is at risk!

Your top shelf dogs will be able to cover it but your run of the mill dog needs that special effort to keep sound and winning occasionally.

Alan Roberts, a hall of famer once said to me, "anyone can train a champion, but it takes a champion trainer to keep a grade 5 dog winning.



Jeanette Spruyt
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 246
Dogs 2 / Races 0

01 Apr 2018 03:04


 (2)
 (0)


Very interesting information.


Carly Absalom
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 215
Dogs 0 / Races 0

01 Apr 2018 06:44


 (6)
 (0)


Great post Trevor,

The starting point of all of these policies needs to change. The controlling body seems to have the attitude that all participants are ignorant and bad. Everyone who wants to shut us down is knowledgeable and good.

By doing this they justify listening to people who may have little, if any, knowledge of the greyhound breed.


Mark Staines
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4499
Dogs 70 / Races 14

01 Apr 2018 07:28


 (3)
 (0)


Trevor Hagney wrote:

Seems that most greyhound welfare reforms being rammed through by state and national bodies are aimed directly at humans, not at the greyhound itself. From GA wanting to ban most therapeutic drugs with no consultation or published research papers,to state authorities setting very low threshholds on naturally occurring environmental elements. On face value, it would look like these measures have been taken to stop humans flaunting racing rules.Most products that are under scrutiny have been used for advantage on other animals by other codes,hence the scepticism that these new rulings are politically motivated.
Authorities are spending vast amounts on animal behavior,track conditions and biometrics,participant education but to date nothing has been mentioned about the vetinary physiology of the greyhound itself.
Interesting greyhound facts-
Greyhounds and salukis are deemed to have come from the same ancestral dog in Persia circa 5000 bc.As such any inherent traits cannot be changed short term.
A greyhounds physiological make up is that peculiar it falls outside the reference range of all other dog breeds. eg
1.Blood volume-greyhound 11.4% of body weight- other breeds 7%
2.Red blood cell count-50-63%,all other breeds would be considered extremely sick with this count
3.Kidney serum concentrations -well outside the reference range of all other breeds
4.Body fat-greyhound 16%,other breeds around 30%
5.Unique blood type-50-70% of greyhounds are "universal" blood donors,compared to less than 20% of other breeds.
6.Lower thyroxine (T4) levels, well outside the reference range of other breeds.
7.Physically larger heart-very large left ventricle for pumping blood around the body
8.Much higher blood pressure than other breeds.
9.Greyhounds do not metabolize drugs as well as other breeds.
Truely a unique breed.

Unfortunately,eminent greyhound vetinarians are not being listened to while these new "welfare policies" are being formulated.Some are walking away from the industry.

Without consultation with experts INSIDE the industry,the formulation of new policies may actually put the welfare of the greyhound at a pronounced risk.

There is a Panel of anonymous so called experts advising the Panel ROFLMAO




Mark Schlegel
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3168
Dogs 9 / Races 5

01 Apr 2018 09:54


 (13)
 (0)


Carly Absalom wrote:

The starting point of all of these policies needs to change. The controlling body seems to have the attitude that all participants are ignorant and bad. Everyone who wants to shut us down is knowledgeable and good.

From the perspective of drug policy at least, the starting point is completely ass backwards!

Under the guise of "welfare" they have prostated themselves on the altar of political correctness where all drugs/chemicals/minerals/vitamins are "bad" and a sure indication of "cheating".

.......except, not ONE drug policy was based on what can potentially harm the dog or artificially enhance it's performance. Not ONE!

Feed Stockgain and get a positive for trace levels of Cobalt that cannot possibly affect the performance of the dog nor have a detrimental affect on it's health - CHEAT!

Use Kohnke's Gold and get a positive for trace levels of Cobalt or Arsenic that cannot possibly affect the performance of the dog nor have a detrimental affect on it's health - CHEAT!

Feed an expensive kibble that has kelp or seaweed in the ingredients and get a positive for trace levels of Cobalt or Arsenic that cannot possibly affect the performance of the dog nor have a detrimental affect on it's health - CHEAT!

Use a Testosterone based steroid to keep a bitch off season and get a positive for levels that aren't even close to levels that would enhance performance - Cheat!

Notice a pattern?

They can't find the real cheats.....so they'll just rewrite a bunch of rules so they can point to the positive swabs and pat themselves on the back for ridding the sport of the bad eggs and looking after the "welfare" of the dogs!


Carly Absalom
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 215
Dogs 0 / Races 0

01 Apr 2018 10:44


 (4)
 (0)


And it is not just that they don't harm the dog. In some cases they are beneficial and we still can't use them.

I will never forget when at one of the GRNSWs "training for the future" seminars the speaker Steve Austin was asked how to stop a dog from playing with the water bowl in their kennel and getting hurt on it. His answer, give them B12 vitamins before kennelling. When we told him we weren't allowed he was shocked and said but they aren't harmful, they are good for the dog.



Mark Schlegel
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3168
Dogs 9 / Races 5

01 Apr 2018 10:53


 (1)
 (0)


Carly Absalom wrote:

And it is not just that they don't harm the dog. In some cases they are beneficial and we still can't use them.

In the warped world of sports administration.......beneficial = cheating!



Bill Deguara
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 215
Dogs 2 / Races 0

01 Apr 2018 13:11


 (1)
 (0)


Mark Schlegel wrote:

Carly Absalom wrote:

And it is not just that they don't harm the dog. In some cases they are beneficial and we still can't use them.

In the warped world of sports administration.......beneficial = cheating!

Maybe SANDRO, BENCHINI, might be able to put some of these questions ,and get some answers to them from the hirachy





Mark Staines
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4499
Dogs 70 / Races 14

01 Apr 2018 14:20


 (1)
 (0)


I hope so Bill.


Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3237
Dogs 6 / Races 0

01 Apr 2018 21:10


 (1)
 (1)


All due respect, but its one big plan to destroy the industry. Fancy removing vitamins and minerals from a dogs diet.

Its funny, Brenton Scott n Sandro Bechini were on the Alliance and Brenton Scott was on the Reform Panel. I doubt if further reform is going to help the industry because as we can see thus far, the cost of three years of reform has burdened the industry to a point it will be halved or starved. The GWIC Commissioners wont even reside out at Bathurst.




Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

01 Apr 2018 21:23


 (0)
 (0)


Trevor,

Although I could not possibly comment on the veterinary or technical aspects of your comments I did write an article several years ago (and often since) pointing out that ....

* laboratory advancements had moved to the stage where microscopic but irrelevant traces of substances could be detected.

* jokingly, I instanced the case of a dog being walked past a bread shop where poppy seed odours were present (not so funny now)

* more recently, I quoted the example of NZ stewards finding that Sweet It Is had caffeine problems due to eating a kibble which had tiny amounts of tea leaves in the recipe

* I note that all recent rule changes offer vague statements that a certain substance might affect a dog - underline might,

* Such doubts are even greater when reading claims that minimum acceptable levels are estimated to be X or Y - underline estimated.

* such rule changes rarely, if ever, include analysis of the actual impact on a dog's performance.

That leaves us with these conclusions:

1. Generally, increased attention to drug use over the last decade or so has been a good thing.
2. The increase in scientific analytical capabilities should be accompanied by realistic analyses of the world around us, especially in respect to the increasing complexity of food manufacture.
3. Reliance on "estimates" etc does not cut the mustard. This is scientifically unsound.
4. A "zero tolerance" policy sounds fine at first glance but it fails to recognise what is happening in the world outside greyhound racing.
5. We need the ability for challenges to be mounted prior to the enactment of any rules. Decisions by bureaucrats (whatever their evidence) always warrant debate.

In short, trainers or their representatives need to organise their own testing.

Fine the speeding drivers, but do not penalise the other 99%.



Michael Peter Martin
New Zealand
(Verified User)
Posts 75
Dogs 0 / Races 0

01 Apr 2018 22:08


 (4)
 (0)


Bruce, the problem is we are being mounted prior top enactment of the rules.


Terry Jordan
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 6018
Dogs 0 / Races 0

02 Apr 2018 21:17


 (1)
 (1)


Mark Schlegel wrote:

Carly Absalom wrote:

The starting point of all of these policies needs to change. The controlling body seems to have the attitude that all participants are ignorant and bad. Everyone who wants to shut us down is knowledgeable and good.

From the perspective of drug policy at least, the starting point is completely ass backwards!

Under the guise of "welfare" they have prostated themselves on the altar of political correctness where all drugs/chemicals/minerals/vitamins are "bad" and a sure indication of "cheating".

.......except, not ONE drug policy was based on what can potentially harm the dog or artificially enhance it's performance. Not ONE!

Feed Stockgain and get a positive for trace levels of Cobalt that cannot possibly affect the performance of the dog nor have a detrimental affect on it's health - CHEAT!

Use Kohnke's Gold and get a positive for trace levels of Cobalt or Arsenic that cannot possibly affect the performance of the dog nor have a detrimental affect on it's health - CHEAT!

Feed an expensive kibble that has kelp or seaweed in the ingredients and get a positive for trace levels of Cobalt or Arsenic that cannot possibly affect the performance of the dog nor have a detrimental affect on it's health - CHEAT!

Use a Testosterone based steroid to keep a bitch off season and get a positive for levels that aren't even close to levels that would enhance performance - Cheat!

Notice a pattern?

They can't find the real cheats.....so they'll just rewrite a bunch of rules so they can point to the positive swabs and pat themselves on the back for ridding the sport of the bad eggs and looking after the "welfare" of the dogs!


Mark: Add this on, Feed your dog fish (Pilchards) Omega6 unacceptable levels of Arsenic...CHEAT



Mark Schlegel
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3168
Dogs 9 / Races 5

03 Apr 2018 00:57


 (2)
 (0)


Terry Jordan wrote:

Mark: Add this on, Feed your dog fish (Pilchards) Omega6 unacceptable levels of Arsenic...CHEAT


Yeah.....I had a mate that used to give tinned sardines as a raceday snack.
That would probably get him rubbed out nowadays.
Ridiculous!


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

03 Apr 2018 23:00


 (0)
 (0)


Michael,

If so, that is yet another ground for challenge. Any administrative tribunal would accept that.

posts 16