Hi Luke ,
I agree with you completely that the Where's Pedro line stands out with my bitch but like I said before there's too much stamina & size in the match up with my boy , I'm really liking the match up with your boy & Barcia Bale but I'm still undecided ATM.
Cheers,
Branko

Hi Nathan ,
I like that match up alot , I followed Unlawful Entry, he possessed a ton of speed & I'm a big fan of his trainer Brett Bravo , Unlawful Entry is on the shortlist.

CLICK HERE

Here is an example of previous mate that is similar to yours as in he has niches to US blood (the dam line is dyna villas )
He is producing speed with the ability to run 500+aswell

CLICK HERE
I can send vids and pics of my litter that are 9 mths old
No one believes they are 9 mths , everyone says no way there race dogs !
Already bite on at bullring all of them except for 1 out of 6 2nd go !
Look at his 50 odd offspring ! There is a real nice even spread
The boy can throw
Def recommend dyna villa

Good luck

Hi Nathan ,
I'm a fan of Dyna Villa & have a Where's Pedro bitch in mind for him but he goes very nicely with Shadow , you've made my choice even harder mate LOL , what stands out with that match up is the mixture of Aussie , Irish & US blood & the undeniable speed he provides.

P.S another son of Collision that is making waves at stud is Hostile.

Cheers,
Branko

CLICK HERE

Hi Matt ,
Thanks for your input , Unlawful Entry & Banjo Boy are already on the shortlist mate & I've already got a Banjo Boy litter going to the breakers next month & want to see what they can do first ,but so far I couldn't be more happier with Banjo Boy , my pups are beautifully conformed & mad keen.

I think you should go the same way, especially with the USA damline

If he is to rich for you then Barcia sons i.e. Mepunga Blazer, Shima Bar and Dyna Double One are also good options

Hi Sandro ,
I'm a big fan of Barcia Bale & i like Barcia Bale alot with Shadow & his sons are beautifully bred but Dyna Double One isn't an option as he's full of stamina & don't think stamina / strength into stamina / strength works.

Hi Branko,

I think your bloke maybe a real option because of the 2x doses of Light of Fire in Margins pedigree.

If you look at Light of Fire's dam Centrefire's relationship to Pedro CLICK HERE , checking the table below you'll see Pedro carries a nick (Chariot Supreme, Temlee & Princess Diro) that covers 88% of Centrefire's pedigree within 5 generations, it's a very high saturation and one possibly worth seriously pursuing considering the effect Pedro has had on this damline previously.

The issue for me wld be that the 2 doses of Light of Fire and therefore Centrefire is 6 generations back into the pedigree and may not be solid enough to recreate that Pedro type intensity required to produce a city type dog. Of course you cld look for a stud that carried Centrefire as a 1st dam in his sireline but if you're looking to set up your sire there is an argument to put him over Destini Shadow.

As for the stamina thought, there is a breeding argument that you shld breed like with like. g/l with your choice.

That's what dyna villa delivers Ryan in gen 4 ! This selection would erase any of the above doubts utilizing centrefire !
And another Breeding argument is breed in her weakness or lack of.... thus eliminating them in her next generation!
In aust on aust tracks at present , duplicating or tripling strength is something I'd be cautious of !
That's mop .....

To me logical reasoning shld always prevail, breeding wivestales by all means include them, it cant hurt, but I wldn't be using here say arguments as a game changer especially when high saturation of nicks that are proven previously with the line are present. jmo.

I dont really understand your last sentence.......

Nathan Bendeich wrote:

...... In aust on aust tracks at present , duplicating or tripling strength is something I'd be cautious of ! .....

if you're advocating re outcrossing, top grade outcrossed racers sires have mostly been highly inbred usually thru a male/female, male/male or female/female combinations usually within 5/6 gens and the fastest outcrossed racers almost definitely linebred in x thru a full blood relation or littermate well within 12 gens.

As for Aus tracks the city tracks in Vic are as good as any in the world and probably better the way they are prepared with the very best technology available.

btw Branko here's one from left field CLICK HERE I realise it's highly inbred to Bombastic at face value however the close relationship between his dam and Pedro is to die for CLICK HERE ........Pedro niche at a very high 88% within 5 gens.

Never judge a book by its cover ? Esp when there's an exceptionally good reason for doing it. jmo.

Your 1st and 2nd paragraph leads with light of fire ...?? That's who I was referring to Ryan
4th gen !

if you're advocating re outcrossing, top grade outcrossed racers sires have mostly been highly inbred usually thru a male/female, male/male or female/female combinations usually within 5/6 gens and the fastest outcrossed racers almost definitely linebred in x thru a full blood relation or littermate well within 12 gens.

As for Aus tracks the city tracks in Vic are as good as any in the world and probably better the way they are prepared with the very best technology available

Wow?????

My last sentence referred to Branko's hesitant approach in using a "strength sire" again as his brood is loaded with renown strength through both her sire line and damline ! Pretty understandable really Ryan
It ain't rocket science !
And my reason for saying be wary or duplicating more or tripling it through both sides is it purely doesn't Siut AUS tracks ! I don't care how good you think any track is prepared in AUS ! It has nothing to do with a dour beginner or helping its cause to lead the pack into the first bend ???
Anyway good luck branko I think your on the right path to injecting something she is lacking ....! Wives tale or not , I think it's def time to fire her lines up
And dyna villa does deliver all of the above in his own racing traits and a lovely double of light of fire !

For example what I'm saying is whether you use Dyna Villa or Margins if it's the Centrefire nick that ignites the mating when using either sire, the litter are likely to have pups that are strong because Centrefire is very closely related to Pedro from a nick perspective and when Pedro was put over that damline it generally produced strength. So to me how fast the dog was out of the boxes doesn't have all that much to do with the box speed of the pup. If it did you wld just get the fastest dog, put it to the fastest bitch and end up with the fastest pup - too many have gone broke trying that and possibly why we are in the predicament of being constantly accused of breeding too many dogs in the past.

Breeding back to what has been successful to the line previously is primary to me. The sires we choose are just vehicles that carry the right nick.

As for your point about the tracks imo it was the lure positioned more towards the centre of the track that produces the racing we have today, the track itself in Vic city hadn't been prepared any differently, the positioning/type of lure was the only variant. Semantics I suppose.

Once again not having a go, just a discussion.cheers.

I'm not having a go either but can you please explain what the hell this means: -

"So to me how fast the dog was out of the boxes doesn't have all that much to do with the box speed of the pup."

Ryan you are a wizard on paper my friend , very clever ! And your example on bookkeeper shows this ! But is also shows there other avenues to reproduce or expose another sires niches you are after!
Whatever way you look at it , you trying to utilize pre gens of where's Pedro is supplied in dyna villa .
Where your lacking Ryan in my opinion is vision or proof of evidence in passing traits on the track ! I know this because I will give u examples of sires where Poeple have done exactly this to get a better performing racer through traits alone from a sire !
Whether you agree or think I lack in breeding because of this technique, we will agree to disagree! That's what is so great about this sport , but if your offering book keeper as aposed to dyna villa ?? Well I guess I will judge a book by its cover and politely say no thanks to this !
My examples of chasing sires track traits that have made a career out of it are
Early speed or box speed sires !

Magic sprite
El grand senor
Fabregas
New arrival Fernando is clearly showing great box mannerisms
Dyna villa early but if you've followed his first crop they possess terrific box speed
Stagger

Sires that don't posses this trait on average !!!

Flying Penske
Velocette
Djays octane
My bro Fabio , great pups and there are exceptions ! But their strength is run home
Turanza bale
Bekim bale

I'm sure there are many others that could be listed into categories of where majority of their offspring would sit in one side or another of box speed or run home traits

This is clearly sire traits ! There is no way statistically that every brood that produced each runner with these patterns coincidentally had the same trait ! The common factor is they were all by the same sire that has made his name by delivering the same trait over and over again !

Paper breeding is great ! And I love it , but at some point Ryan both methods have to applied I believe to get a nice result
The whole idea of finding your broods weakness which 9 times out of 10 is strength and then going to a strength producing sire supports this !
It wasn't done on paper ! It was done by Poeple looking at what is happening on the track at present offspring !
And don't use wheeler as a person that would disagree !
He has the luxury of not worrying about this predicament!
Cheers bud see you on the next breeding choice !
Advice or a tip ! I wouldn't use books keeper or bee keeper again or whatever his name is
He won't make it as a sire ....... ever !
My point about tracks that you didn't understand was that we have the fastest tracks in the world ! And our box positioning doesn't help or better our situation for the need of good early speed box dogs ! 500 mtr 600 mtr strength dogs included in this !
It is fact if your in front you are advantaged ! So when you have strength in a brood already , it would be wise to utilize a speed sire ! That's it , the preparation of the track in AUS has no influence on this result ! Our tracks are hazardously fast !
Did you watch the speed star races !
Suddenly djays octane excelled ! Why??? Less runners and a heavy track !
It wasn't through the broods that night having certain niches over djays
These results aren't found on paper , you have to watch them occur in real time live !

Cheers again good luck Ryan

I basically agree with what you are saying and I always say to breeders I converse with, to always consider the traits of the bitch and the sire you intend to use, all I'm advocating is get a list of sires first that suit the bitch from a pedigree perspective only(that shld be your foundation), because it can be measured in a definitive way by percentages, then from that list chose a sire that brings in whatever thoughts you may have(such as what you have listed in your last post), with a view to upgrading your stock by correcting weaknesses in the line.

Therefore my example of Bookkeeper was from a pedigree perspective only, and you maybe totally correct in that he may never suit the bitch you had in mind to mate from a trait perspective, but from a pedigree perspective in this case he suits the bitch for the reasons I've given in a previous post & therefore has to be on that list for consideration by the breeder. The breeder may then decide that Bookkeeper doesn't suit his girl for what ever reason, and go a different way, just as long as bias doesn't prevail. The rest is up to the breeding gods and the talents of the brood as you will have done everything in your power as her breeder to ensure she has the chance to become a decent brood.

No wizardary, just that imo there is an order, and the logic that can be measured in a pedigree has to come before all else. Good talking. cheers.