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With the proposal of two new tracks (Limerick and Cork) coming on board for the bags racing in the next two or three months is this the right way forward for the game and what does it spell for other tracks that doesnt have this income?
Just interesting to hear other peoples taughts.
Personally I think if the package for the bags racing is financially worthwhile its a great way to showcase our great industry and hopefully assure that more tracks wont close.
Neil Fraser United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 162 Dogs 0 / Races 0 16 Jul 2018 09:52
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I would be careful what you wish for - ultimately, it will end with the sport being run by bookmakers for bookmakers just as it is in the UK.
Tracks actually end up being more vulnerable as they are totally reliant on the income from the bookmaker service. That is all well and good until the contract is lost and bookmakers will not hesitate to pull the plug as soon as it is no longer commercially viable.
We have the crazy situation where dogs are running throughout the day with hardly a paying customer coming through the gates. How are new owners going to be attracted when they rarely get a chance to see their dog run? Without the social aspect of dog ownership and racing what else do you have?
A slippery slope for Irish tracks if they become reliant on BAGS would be my concern.
The way forward is to promote the sport right now their making a complete dogs dinner out of promoting the game...theirs enough sports clubs ect in this country to have a benefit meeting at every track in the country at least twice a month...
PERSONALLY I DONT THINK WE SHOULD HAVE TO BE THINKING ABOUT BAGS RACING IN IRELAND, THE BOARD NEED TO REMEMBER THERE IS MORE THAN 1 TRACK IN IRELAND AND SPREAD THEIR MONEY MORE EVENLY, BAGS RACING WOULD ERASE THE SMALL OWNER TRAINER WHO BREEDS HIS OWN, IF HE CANT RACE HE WONT BREED, LOOK AT THE STATE OUR SPORT IS IN AND LOOK AT WHO HAS BEEN STEERING THE SHIP, UNLESS WE AS GREYHOUND PEOPLE GET CONTROL OF OUR SPORT OUR GAME FINISHED BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY CARE.
Bags doesn't exist anymore it is either SIS or Arc, in this case it is SIS. I don't know where they think the dogs are going to come from. Cork was on the service when it 1st started weren't they and didn't last long and the grading will have to improve dramatically at Limerick for them to be considered even with the RSO spending time a Crayford
To make an informed view of the potential of Bags racing in Ireland I believe you need the following information. How much is SIS paying per race. It is common knowledge that horse racing gets 6 k a race. That is 42 k per average meeting before you open the gates. How much is currently bet per race in Tralee, Youghal and Mullingar. What are the forecasted figures for the next three years. How much are the track bookies paid to stand and make a book with very limited turnover. How much can you get on on your dog both on track and off track. Most owners and trainers love a bet. What are the expenses of running such meetings, that is staff, catering , cards, cleaning etc. What is the current level of prize money. There is no doubt that greyhound racing is an attractive betting medium and with fewer and fewer tracks around the world Irish Tracks could flourish in the future. Also with international pictures and betting it could be very profitable. If as in horse racing an owner can see his dog race on his TV or computer and have a decent bet that will keep owners in the game with average greyhounds. There will always be owners for the expensive greyhound to run in prestige races where the crowds are sizeablrvand the company is good. The major problem is catering for the greyhound owner with the average dog. Correct me if I am wrong but the prices returned for Irish Bags Meetings are substantially greater than those returned for normal greyhound meetings. Is it because the prices are artificially high because you can get very little on. Very interesting subject and well worth investigating. Could well be the future.
If we don't value our own product who else will. 2k to get a dog to track yet people on here selling qualified novice pups for 300 and less.
These people are ruining the market for everyone else and just lining the pockets of uk bookies.
These are senseless prices and an insult to breeders and rearers.Its been going on too long, Bags in Ireland might encourage people to keep these dogs here and ultimately increase market value of dogs.
Martin James Ireland (Verified User) Posts 1128 Dogs 5 / Races 0 17 Jul 2018 20:58
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Around 3K here versus 10 K in UK is the rumoured figure Chris. Belle Vue a Bags track under threat so bookmakers need to keep their options open. As a slight Aside one for Pascal if he's still about. Belle Vue was sold recently for under 3Million stg. The new owners are testing the market for housing development. I think it has a 6 million. Population in its catchment area. I can't understand how it could be sold so cheaply. A proper stadium there would easily match Walthamstow would it not.
Martin James Ireland (Verified User) Posts 1128 Dogs 5 / Races 0 17 Jul 2018 21:09
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A typical Irish Bags dog runs for 285Win 80 second 40 third 20 unplaced.Less 60 euro entry fees. Grading will be tight so expect to win I in six if the grader has your measure you will average about 60 Euro per run overall. Some owners are quite happy with this return especially if you can get a couple on.
Martin With such population numbers a modernized Belle Vue would in my opinion definitely work financially. Remember all of Ireland with 5 million population is supporting 17 tracks. For myself I am just too old to take on what would be at least a 5 year project. The current figures for Irish Bags prize money just does not add up for breeders, owners and trainers. Mind you as I said before if Irish Greyhound Racinh can become a world betting product then anything is possible. Clearly it adds up for the Board if they are adding on two extra tracks. I think the Board should share their numbers and forecasts with the owners and trainers to ensure their continued support. As a betting man what type of money can you get on both on track and off track on an Irish Bags greyhound. If the dog happens to win handily is the trainer reprimanded. Remember for most people the attraction of a bet is very important. We just had the Wirkd Cup and the amount of gambling on the football was unprecedented. My younger friends lost a fortune on the exotics. They think they can win betting 100 to 1 shots. Oh to be an online bookmaker with such losers around. My only consolation is that they appear to be betting small.
Just wonder why Clonmel track isnt on the list for SIS??? After what I know Clonmel track could need some income?? Any specific reason??
With the proposal of two new tracks (Limerick and Cork) coming on board for the bags racing in the next two or three months is this the right way forward for the game and what does it spell for other tracks that doesnt have this income?
Just interesting to hear other peoples taughts.
Personally I think if the package for the bags racing is financially worthwhile its a great way to showcase our great industry and hopefully assure that more tracks wont close.
Paschal, have Bags meetings at PRIVATE TRACKS ONLY. This will we hope keep them going. Longford/Clonmel/Enniscorthy. Newbridge is the nearest to Spk so if the Marketing is good it should take off. Have city tracks with extra prizemoney ie 500e per race for grades from Open to A3 etc.(open for debate). Have a special Trial stake at the bags to allow bags dogs run in the city tracks. I believe bookmakers who stand at bags meetings get 400 euro. Again, what are the owners getting? Have the local Goba asked for FREE ENTRY FEES?. MEAL FOR OWNERS?. 40E RUN MONEY?. Owners CAN REFUSE TO RUN, AFTERALL, WE PRODUCE THE PRODUCT
Someone once said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. Well this business model has been fully tried and tested in the UK and as Neil Fraser stated it ultimately, it will end with the sport being run by bookmakers for bookmakers. In fact the UK tracks negotiated 3 times more per race and still it failed to benefit the greyhound industry so any optimism for an Irish success story is short sighted.
But it does not have to be this way. While the IGBs Strategic Plan (2018 2022) lacks ambition in terms of KPIs, I believe that the Tote returns from Irish greyhounds should be at the very least on a par with horses because it is a night time activity which is when people spend most of their disposal income while horse race meetings are usually confined to afternoon events held in the countryside. However this would require an IGB executive that maximises technology and ensures efficient use of their annual seven figure marketing budget. The good news is that if darts can do it then greyhound racing can too and as Paschal stated above, we just had the World Cup and the amount of gambling on the football was unprecedented.
Peter Burke TD asked about the commercial arrangement with the tracks in Youghal, Tralee and Mullingar at the Public Accounts Committee on the 4th of May 2017. Michael Murnane responded stating that the deal was entered into on 6 February 2016 It involves 1,500 races, and we anticipate that it will generate 476,000 in revenue for the three tracks annually. EXTERNAL LINK
This means that the IGB are RECEIVING 317 PER RACE which is a TERRIBLE DEAL for the Irish greyhound owners and breeders when compared with the UK tracks who receive around 1,000 PER RACE.
Michael Murnane went on to state that the deal that we have arranged with SIS includes a non-disclosure agreement for commercial sensitivity purposes. We are precluded from advising what each meeting or track will earn. I would imagine that SIS wanted this NDA because of the low cost per race compared to the UK tracks.
Who will be negotiating this new deal on behalf of the Limerick and Cork owner & breeders as the last IGB negotiating team was destroyed by their SIS counterparts.
When this 5 year deal was being negotiated between the IGB and SIS, were any of the GOBAs involved? It certainly would of being in the Irish owners & breeders interests to have a united IGOBF involved in these negotiations. However this is unlikely given the high level of animosity and in-fighting that I have seen from all sides when trying to develop an IGOBF website representing all Irish tracks.
As you would expect I agree with Kieran Bole s analysis on Irish Bags greyhound racing. I went in to Boyles Sports Rathgar branch this morning to collect my winnings on France and to place my Open golf bets. I asked the very helpful manager how much I could get on Irish greyhound racing. 25 euros. Obviously if you were a regular loser you might get on a few euros more. Would love to understand the business rational of more Irish Bags Meetings for owners and trainers.
Martin James Ireland (Verified User) Posts 1128 Dogs 5 / Races 0 18 Jul 2018 10:56
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At the moment if an owner got 6 dogs on Irish Bags each week and they filled each position as in I winner I second and so on they will get a bank payment of around 800 Euro for their trouble that is for 2 weeks racing. This is much higher than the UK because tracks are privately owned and profits are kept by the owners of the Stadiums
An investment to buy or rear 6 greyhounds, add trainer or owners weekly costs. 400 a week seems a very poor return. Still do not see the logic of it all. Has to be other considerations and advantages. Does anyone know the answer.
Michael Murnane responded stating that the deal was entered into on 6 February 2016 It involves 1,500 races, and we anticipate that it will generate 476,000 in revenue for the three tracks annually.
This means that the IGB are RECEIVING 317 PER RACE which is a TERRIBLE DEAL for the Irish greyhound owners and breeders when compared with the UK tracks who receive around 1,000 PER RACE.
Martin James - the Irish greyhound owners & breeders are being bent over and getting their pants pulled. What part do you not understand?
SIS is getting 3 Irish BAGs races for the price of 1 UK BAGs race so Irish racing is being devalued.
Just because the IGB is adding to the prize money from the Horse and Greyhound fund at the moment doesnt mean this will continue indefinitely.
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