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Same race time,same margin,no dead heat!!page  1 2 3 

Mark Wilcox
Australia
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Posts 264
Dogs 1 / Races 0

16 Aug 2018 21:46


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bob take a look at this finish number 2 race 7 bulli 4/8/18 must be a real bad angle.


Terry Jordan
Australia
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Posts 6018
Dogs 0 / Races 0

16 Aug 2018 22:18


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I raced at a non/tab meeting some 10 years ago, and my dog flashed down the outside, I thought I won as the angle (photo-finish) favoured dogs out wide. They semaphored the numbers, 2nd? I thought gee whats going on here? Asked the Steward if I could see the Finish Lynx. Sure! escorted me to the judge's room. Studied the finish print, Judge state's that's as close to a dead/heat as you'll ever get!! Yep I agree, as it is a bloody dead heat.
Judge then state's if you go back one frame, the other dog has a nose in front? That's true How many finish lines are you employing here today I asked? I walked away shaking my head. Just didn't want to have a dead/heat. The LOCAL won.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

16 Aug 2018 23:51


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Gillian,

As I mentioned previously, the Bulli SKY camera has always been located - or aimed - from just past the finishing post. It is notorious for the problems it creates. Doubly so when the dogs are wide apart.

Presumably, the Finishlynx camera is differently located but we trust it is at 90 degrees or nearly so.

Even so, that doubt about positioning is one of the reasons I pointed out that various mechanical issues can and do impose themselves on the evidence before the judge - and why using three decimal places is inconsistent with that level of accuracy.

As an aside, the film of this race also demonstrates a flaw in track design which has been there since the year dot. The latter part of the home turn and the turn into the straight is too flat - which is why many dogs (including this winner) are thrown to the outside. On the old (pre-flood) dual track I have even seen a dog get an elbow and be forced to jump the intervening fence (it finished 6th).

Had the track been properly contoured, this winner would likely have had a margin of a couple of lengths, not a nose.

Proper supervision would have stopped this design flaw occurring in the first place. The post flood job was entirely under the control of the local club (not GBOTA).

As another aside, why have sectional times disappeared under the GBOTA reign? That's not good for National qualifications.


Daryl Barrett
Australia
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Posts 1739
Dogs 1 / Races 0

17 Aug 2018 09:58


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Bruce,firstly,i did not imply that the timing system separated 2nd from 3rd,it was the way you wrote that example that lead me to believe that was the case,by you own admittance,you say that there is a chance of " possible error ",due to,operation & placement of the camera,and the quality of equipment & gear the judge user's to determine in his/her opinion,also the angle of the camera can come into play as you also stated.So,if I have read this correctly,the judge's "eye",is the be all & end all of the decision made in photo finish's,& further more,official race time's are also allocated by the same judge,which I guess,justify's that decision ?,so even if/ when the official track timing system record's multiple dog's finishing wth exactly the same time ( using that 3rd decimal point ),the decision made disregards the most accurate timing system in racing? Interestingly,I find it amusing that in track / field event's in athletic's,swimming,cycling etc etc, Olympic Game's,that the 3rd decimal point is quite often used to determine finishing position's- absolutely,not just " the eye ".It sounds like the the pen will always be mightier than the sword,& in fact there is no place for official race time's to be included or recorded because of the option that it can be altered ,at the discretion on the judge to determine the finishing position if in his/ her opinion,their eye,is right,all the time & every time despite the most accurate timing system telling a different story.(possible camera's,equipment,Angles,tripods,so on & so on not being " top class ",you're word's mate,not mine )For the record,i do believe the judge's get it right 99.900 of the time,but maybe,just maybe,that 3rd decimal point could assist them further in making their final decision in certain photo finishes...at least worth a thought.( In Vic,that "dreaded 3rd decimal point isn't even recorded against a dog's OFFICIAL race time in some cases because it has been more than clear of the finishing position,but that option of using it is their if needed).



Richard Gray
Australia
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Posts 2231
Dogs 11 / Races 9

17 Aug 2018 10:05


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It is what it is. Judge's decision is final! Even kyrgios eventually moves on from a close line call.

Rich.



Michael Geraghty
Australia
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Posts 4138
Dogs 14 / Races 15

17 Aug 2018 10:41


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Here is a photo finish from the last race at Ipswich tonight.
The judge deliberated for ages before declaring the result.
He gave the verdict to the 9 by a nose.(the minimal margin)
I heard him speaking to someone after the race and he mentioned there was a minuscule margin by TIME.
Apparently he has a line that he can manually move to get an idea how they line up and with that line the time will adjust.
He used his eye with the technology of the movable line and THE TIME DIFFERENCE between the two noses to arrive at the decision.
Both runners were given the same time because we only have .00 here.
I'm pretty sure he said the difference was around .004.

That's the way it is.

EXTERNAL LINK


Daryl Barrett
Australia
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Posts 1739
Dogs 1 / Races 0

17 Aug 2018 19:28


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G'day Michael,i just had a look at that,& after only 10 record's,my eye agreed with the judge's eye,it was very clear that there was nose between them.I then decided to take another look at the photo finish that I posted about,& whilst the inside dog's nose appears to be miniscule more prominent,the outside dog's nose is minisculey also touching the line,which prompted me in raising this question.I always thought,that however miniscule any part of the nose that touches that line determined it's finishing position,but like you & other's have said ( & i do agree ),the decision was made & it is what it is,that can't be changed,but it make's me wonder what would happen if it happened in a Group 1 race to decide the winner,but yep,time to move on,but one request if I may because I'm not sure how do that " copy bloody paste" thing,could you put the photo finish up of race 5 at Wenty from the 9th of July,i know it might make me look like goose,but I would be interested in opinions after people viewed it,whether they agree or not.( Just hope I'm not being "one dickied eye" about it,lol).



Malcolm Smart
Australia
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Posts 12802
Dogs 19 / Races 34

17 Aug 2018 19:37


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Bruce Teague wrote:

Gillian,

As another aside, why have sectional times disappeared under the GBOTA reign? That's not good for National qualifications.

Don't know where you get your info from, but its WRONG , we GBOTA, still use sectional time within 100th of a second to seperate first 4 to determine final starters..


Terry Jordan
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 6018
Dogs 0 / Races 0

17 Aug 2018 21:25


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Michael Geraghty wrote:

Here is a photo finish from the last race at Ipswich tonight.
The judge deliberated for ages before declaring the result.
He gave the verdict to the 9 by a nose.(the minimal margin)
I heard him speaking to someone after the race and he mentioned there was a minuscule margin by TIME.
Apparently he has a line that he can manually move to get an idea how they line up and with that line the time will adjust.
He used his eye with the technology of the movable line and THE TIME DIFFERENCE between the two noses to arrive at the decision.
Both runners were given the same time because we only have .00 here.
I'm pretty sure he said the difference was around .004.

That's the way it is.

EXTERNAL LINK


We see the Man up in the "Bunker" get these decisions "Wrong" every week Mick!
Give a Dead Heat if that bloody close? and no penalty (Dropping a Grade) Time to share the Love & Wealth....Santa Tezz

BTW We need a "Protest System Introduced" asap.....He He He


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

17 Aug 2018 22:34


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Malcolm,

Good for you but they do not appear on the official results pages on Ozchase. Secret info is hardly of much use to anyone else.


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2092
Dogs 0 / Races 0

17 Aug 2018 23:54


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Daryl,

There are three subject areas here ...

1. Deciding the finishing positions.
2. The worth of the equipment in use to assist the judge.
3. Two or three decimal places.

#1 is always decided by the judge's eye. Always. He may or may not have a pile of gear to assist him. For greyhound racing that usually amounts to a Finshlynx software system working in a variety of circumstances and in a variety of hardware across the nation. That software holds the data file (race film) and a Finishlynx-supplied vertical line which is then displayed on the screen and which is adjustable (working just like the cursor on your screen as you write words). You can move your cursor; the judge can move his vertical line. Both move over the top of whatever is on the screen to start with.

Pre-Finishlynx, judges used a normal photo and a magnifying glass. We have now improved on the magnifying glass. That's all.

For AFL and ARL decisions, judges (bunkers) also use their eye while moving the image back and forth. Very similar.

Athletics is very similar to racing. Swimming is not - the order and the times are decided by connecting eight underwater plates electronically to a central point. They must touch the plates.

Some times can be established by noting when a runner broke a beam - eg for greyhound sectional times. That beam is supposedly aimed at right angles to the track but I seriously doubt that it is - or could be - accurate to three decimal places.

In all cases there will be some variability in the nature or quality of the equipment in use, just as no two otherwise identical motor cars achieve precisely the same maximum speed. That need not lead to any errors in deciding the placings but it could lead to marginal errors or differences between any two timing systems.

Most certainly, nothing in those greyhound systems supports the concept that timing to three decimal places makes any sense. Quite the reverse.

The eye is the real force. Times are just tacked on to the basic decision like lacquer on the dining room table. One is a prime determinant, the other is just applied science - ie secondary.

For record keeping - as you ask - times are a clerically convenient way of listing the outcomes. The national convention is to use only two decimal places - including in GRV records or formguides. Also note that the electronic times and the Finishlynx times are almost always slightly different. That's why you see the semaphore board show a different time to the official verdict.

Your last sentence is therefore irrelevant - they cannot "use" the third decimal place - they can only apply it to a decision already made.

And so on and so forth.

PS In the Ipswich case quoted elsewhere the judge did not decide the race on the basis of a time. He placed the dogs by eye and then wrote down a time to suit the circumstances. As always.


Daryl Barrett
Australia
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Posts 1739
Dogs 1 / Races 0

18 Aug 2018 02:47


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G'day Bruce,as always,it is great to debate all sorts of subject's,but as i said to Michael,i have moved on from having my opinion,but there has been some interesting thoughts & explanations regarding this,so thanks for all of the input from everyone,cheers mate.


Michael Geraghty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4138
Dogs 14 / Races 15

18 Aug 2018 03:05


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EXTERNAL LINK


Michael Geraghty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4138
Dogs 14 / Races 15

18 Aug 2018 03:11


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daryl barrett wrote:

G'day Michael,i just had a look at that,& after only 10 record's,my eye agreed with the judge's eye,it was very clear that there was nose between them.I then decided to take another look at the photo finish that I posted about,& whilst the inside dog's nose appears to be miniscule more prominent,the outside dog's nose is minisculey also touching the line,which prompted me in raising this question.I always thought,that however miniscule any part of the nose that touches that line determined it's finishing position,but like you & other's have said ( & i do agree ),the decision was made & it is what it is,that can't be changed,but it make's me wonder what would happen if it happened in a Group 1 race to decide the winner,but yep,time to move on,but one request if I may because I'm not sure how do that " copy bloody paste" thing,could you put the photo finish up of race 5 at Wenty from the 9th of July,i know it might make me look like goose,but I would be interested in opinions after people viewed it,whether they agree or not.( Just hope I'm not being "one dickied eye" about it,lol).

Sorry Darryl,
No results are showing for Wenty on 9th July 2018.
Is the date right?


Daryl Barrett
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1739
Dogs 1 / Races 0

18 Aug 2018 04:33


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G'day Michael,sorry mate,bum steer on the date,should been 9th August,sh@*,...might be a bad omen,ha ha ha.


Daryl Barrett
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1739
Dogs 1 / Races 0

18 Aug 2018 04:34


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Point taken Michael.


Michael Geraghty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4138
Dogs 14 / Races 15

18 Aug 2018 07:52


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daryl barrett wrote:

G'day Michael,sorry mate,bum steer on the date,should been 9th August,sh@*,...might be a bad omen,ha ha ha.

Here you go mate.

EXTERNAL LINK


Daryl Barrett
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1739
Dogs 1 / Races 0

18 Aug 2018 19:37


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Thank you for that Michael,you're a man of many talents.


Michael Geraghty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4138
Dogs 14 / Races 15

18 Aug 2018 20:50


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 (1)


daryl barrett wrote:

Thank you for that Michael,you're a man of many talents.

Good lookin' too.


Daryl Barrett
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1739
Dogs 1 / Races 0

18 Aug 2018 20:59


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Now you're pushing it mate,lol.

posts 42page  1 2 3