Whoever said to breed to slow coaches?

Some of the stayers I have mentioned are city track record holders.

Waverly Supreme, who is one of the cornerstones of out modern breed and found in over 80% of dog sin Australia was a track record holder over 700m at Shelbourne Park.

It is widely agreed that Temlee would have excelled as a stayer if tried, but he wasn't as it would have killed his stud career

All the sires you have mentioned, perhaps could run pretty hard

Kinloch Brae was known for early speed in the USA hence his import to Ireland but he was also strong

Radley Bale won the Easter Egg in 29.67, I think leading all the way but he has stamina genes flowing through his veins

DDO won a stack of 500m races and made innumerable Group race finals and won a Melbourne Cup before he broke the 2 city track records over 600m in Victoria

I am not saying we don't need early pace sires, we do, otherwise will become too dour, but we need strength sires/dams to maintain a good pool of 500m dogs that can train on to 600m & 700m as they age so that our main Group races which are held at 500m and above can be maintained at a good standard

Why do all the top breeders flock to the USA stud dogs? Our breeding pool has been narrowed down by breeding to 400m dogs.

Generations of the USA greyhounds have been bred on tough solid lines, not brilliant squibs who struggle past 400m

You can blame the tracks all you like, we have had worse tracks than these in the past and we still had plenty of stayers, but at the end of the day if you want 500m+ greyhounds you need to breed for them and trainers need to skilled enough to train them

I am not blaming anyone or anything , merely pointing out the raw fundamentals of what is happening and going to proceed .
Pointing out how our tracks are built and prepared isn't blaming but explaining the thoughts and reasoning behind people's selection on using certain sires .
That's all , nothing more nothing less
The sires you have pointed out winnning certain sprint trips is great ,factual and an awesome achievement to all involved at that time , BUT , these are the 1% freaks
Remember that ! They do not represent the larger volume of standard greys no matter what topic we talk about them in .
Poeple use US Blood ,why ? We are getting off topic here but
Because they want another fernando! Who's limit was 500 !
Not because they want an ebby ripper ! Just think about the difference for a sec
Lastly , pointing out that strength sires more then likely don't throw lid pingers,has no inclination at all that you are breeding slow couches ?
It represents that their racing traits are going to be midfield jumpers ,a lot of hard luck stories and with that comes frustration and a good chance of probably not going down that path again if you choose to load up and go through the whole process again .why ??? Track conditions didn't siut and the money returned wasn't enough!
Agree or not but only talking about the 1% cream at the top and not including the larger pool of results with the standard dogs running around is a downfall for the real reason why we are where we are today !

Not sure if you follow any stats or not, but referring to Fernando Bale, he was a very good 500m dog that if trained for it, I have no doubt he would have also excelled at 600m

There are ample stamina genes in his pedigree

His littermates got 600m and beyond

Elfen Bale Sandown 595m 34.25
Gazer Bale Meadows 600m 34.78
Ikaku Bale Sandown 595m 34.04, Cannington 715m
Linco Bale Meadows 600m 34.47, Shepparton 650m, Angle Park 731m

His dam is a half sister to the dam of Jarvis Bale, who was a top class stayer

Fernando himself is producing mainly 500m+ greyhounds and now many are progressing to 600m and 700m as they age

He is really a sire of the ages, hopefully one that will reverse the squib trend

But if you want to breed to 400m producing dogs, I guess that's your choice

If you talk to the little known trainers at the track Fernando Bale is producing mostly 300-400m dogs. It is nothing more than weight in numbers that is giving the illusion of Fernando Bale being a good sire for strength. Admittedly his good ones are going very good, but his slow ones are very slow.

I have no doubt that if sires like Glen Gallon, Blazin' Bomber, My Bro Fabio, Bessy Boo (500m dogs that didn't need to lead) etc. had the same amount and quality of broodies they would be dominant sires too.

Not sure why it is you need to keep referring to me personally????what I breed with and who too has nothing to do with 400 mtr ? Not sure where your insinuations are going ? Anyway back on topic
Fernando regardless of your very informative stats and fam history ! Was used and is now used because of one thing !
His speed / box speed !!!
If you wish to disagree with this , then I can't help you any further ! It's been spelt out to you many times , I think you'll find his broods have a great contribution to these distance results !
This is a topic about breeding and weakness !
This topic is an across the board query , meaning everyone and breed included,not just the elite bubble of Sandro ,Britton and Azzopardi
Yet when an opposing theory is raised you seem to defend it by stats by the best or top breeders and top trainers only ! Really ??
What answer or solution do think your going to arrive at with this theory Sandro ?
I could be wrong but maybe another look at the other 90% of the industry and it's results (sires ) and or their personal grievances at tracks might shed some different light on your assuming manner at present.
Again .... a track grievance isn't a blame ! It's the trainer looking out for the work he has put into a greyhound only for it to be wasted in a sec on box rise !
We all race on the same tracks ! How can one trainer blame a track ?it's a mutual racing ground ???? That's a weird and dumb statement !

"Up to you ..... I guess that's your choice " yeh mate ! Well said .......another cracker

In fact, if you go back through history racing was originally over the 'shorts'. It was only later on when betting became the 'ruler of all things greyhound racing' that longer races became common.

Pace and chase is what greyhound racing is known for.

Sheer weight of numbers means nothing to me.

I work off times and percentages and percentages show that, of the new sires, MBF and Fernando are at the top of the 600m+ tree.

PS All sires produce slow dogs

PPS I agree that some of the lesser lights you have mentioned should be given more chances to shine.

Nathan

Its nothing personal.

Why shouldn't I reference to the best of the breed. They were great dogs.

Its got nothing to do with any of the trainers that you mention, in fact, I never mentioned any of them, you did.

Contrary to what you think I have used sprinters as sires namely EGS, Fear Zafonic, Fabregas & Vapour Whirl of recent times and I must say that while we had some good chasers amongst them they were mainly squibs, and out of a bitch that was by a USA sire who won over 600m twice.

Fear Zafonic produced the best results via a dog called Fearless Flyer, he was a flying machine who unfortunately was very injury prone but managed to run 29.95 at Cranbourne and 29.6 at Sandown along the way. His two sisters have had nearly 100 starts each but either of them can't run an inch past 320m but they are hard chasers, I will grant them that.

I am hardly an elite breeder and I haven't found the secret to breeding stamina yet, maybe I never will, but still trying and willing to experiment.

Lately have used Smart Missile over my 400m bitch. I am odds on to get more hard chasing squibs

Maybe I will just start taking the easy way out and try and breed more and more squibs so us 90% can all race against each other and put the winning post at the end of the back straight. LOL

I hear what you are saying. However my basic point was that there has been a degradation in stamina over the years. Or, as one famous commentator put it, "They are not as robust as the used to be".

So I am pointing out a trend which I consider worrying. Firstly, because it is affecting the breed as a whole and, secondly, because the fans prefer races longer than 400m and ones with better starts - and that's where your wages and industry stability comes from.

That's indirectly why all the big money is for 500m or so.

But I have to reject your middle sentence. There is no historical evidence that betting changes caused distance changes - quite the
contrary. OR not since WW2. I don't go back that far but when I joined the fray a common adage in dog racing was "back the favourite in the distance race". See Zoom Top and many others.

Similarly, all the good dogs in the 1950s were racing over nothing less than 450m or 520m (depending on the track shape). The shorts were nearly all limited to country or non-TAB tracks patronised by enthusiasts, or sometimes to coursing or straight tracks (not that they are necessarily easy). I stand to be corrected but the only shorts I can remember at city tracks in those days was the 311m at Olympic Park - and it was a right-angled horror. Others at Wentworth Park, Albion Park, Hobart, Launceston, Angle Park and Cannington have been added in recent times (and at regional tracks as well).

But certainly I agree the #1 quality you want is a hard chaser. Being fast as well is a bonus.

Statistically, the average greyhound reaches top speed over a 435m trip. After that most are slowing down. The question then is when and by how much.

We are playing with loaded dice.

I must nearly be as old as you as I can still remember when the city and TAB tracks had as many as 4 x 700m races programmed and very few races were less than 450m

This debate is not about not having chase and speed, its about how that speed and chase has been diminished to a shorter distance

Take a good look at the distances they raced over. Oh, and let us know how many articles you have to go through to find a race of 700 METRES plus.

Now, the average greyhound actually reaches top speed within 50 metres and starts slowing from then on.

AND, loaded dice is when you breed with nonnies, eg, most stayers and the odd 'shorter' racer. How long have we been breeding for speed? Since the timing of races began.

I was going to 6 dog meetings a week when I was assisting my father who was a bookmaker

I can categorically state that every TAB meeting carried at least 2 700's a night, usually a mixed or 5th grade and a higher grade

Now we hardly see one at all on the TAB tracks, but I am talking about NSW, maybe in Victoria it was different, we didn't have the same coverage then as we have now

We had great sprinters and great stayers but there seemed to be far more of the latter

All were a pleasure to watch and follow. I guess I just don't want to see them disappear

We will more than likely never see those days again.

PS Just looked at that website of yours , have a look at 3rd May 1973

Bulli had 10 races, 5 were 457m and 5 were 617m races, which was their longest distance at the time, one of those was a 5th grade and the winner was no other than the great Miss High Lo

Dapto's fields had two 722m races, they were Races 9 & 10, the rest were 500m races, no squib races

Ironically, Races 9 & 10 at Dapto these days are 297m squib races

Hi Sandro,

just looking at a few old racecards.

Harringay London 20 th july 1979

race 1 475 mt
2 475 mt
3 660 mt
4 475 mt
5 475 mt
6 891 mt
7 475 mt
8 660 mt
9 414 mt
10 669 mt
11 475 mt
12 660 mt

White City. London April 7 th 1979

race 1 500 mt
2 680 mt
3 500 mt
4 680 mt
5 500 mt
6 680 mt
7 500 mt
8 730 mt
9 500 mt
10 500 mt
11 730 mt

you said that you used Fear Zafonic on one of your bitches

looking at those old race cards i do not see a stud dog that was a 460 mt dog like FEAR ZAFONIC as a sire of any of them

also a 460 mt dog on UK tracks is like a 445 mt dog on your fast tracks

Bruce is right when he says we have so many short races and breeding too many short runners

RE: "Now, the average greyhound actually reaches top speed within 50 metres and starts slowing from then on".

I was careful with my words but you (and others previously) have misinterpreted them.

I talked about "trips" - ie the average speed over a distance, not how quickly a dog might gain top speed. If you get the calculator out you will find that there is a gradual rise in average speed in m/sec (track records) until you go past the 425/435m mark. After that, the average speed starts declining, as you might expect.

Of course, that involves at least one turn, when speed drops around the turn before it picks up again. Straight track speeds are a bit faster but they are all over much less than 400m.

My reference to loaded dice was to the future. Does the industry want to address major trends or ignore them?

At the gallops they have chosen to ignore them (their trends are similar to greyhounds'). Consequently, you have a Melbourne Cup full of overseas-bred horses while Derbies and the like are now run over reduced distances and big money is now allocated to six and seven furlong races, often for youngsters.

Anyway, the point I would make is that there is a helluva lot of fascinating discussion on this thread - but I'll bet you London to a brick on that it is not happening in boardrooms around the country where all the decisions are made.

In contrast, GRNSW is paying PwC squillions to tell us if a new TAB-track at Queanbeyan is a good idea and more squillions to "improve" Goulbourn which just recently had squillions spent on it. All this in a climate where track rationalisation is mooted, even essential, where the code is dependent on government handouts for the next five years and where they cant get right the conditions for a million dollar race. What a shambles!

Other expensive consultants have been hired to manage racing in Queensland and to tell us how many races each state should be running (report pending?), Victorian consultants told us we were overbreeding (really?), while GA told the world we should be cutting back all activity by one third, whereupon the McHugh Commission had a field day blowing all the unchecked figures out of proportion.

Loaded dice indeed, but who is loading them?

Incidentally, GRNSW says the PwC report is for the Minister (presumably of Racing). Yet we keep getting told that GRNSW/GWIC operate at arms' length from the government. Very short arms!

PS: Queanbeyan used to have an operating club but could not make a go of it and closed down, possibly due to the proximity to the Canberra club. Moss Vale was also handy and popular but the Council shut that down. Canberra then catered easily for dogs located in the region (including Goulbourn, Yass, Wagga, Young, etc) but it got shut down, too. The ACT itself has never had a large resident dog population. And its racing program was dominated by 310m and 440m races. So who raised the spectre of resurrecting Queanbeyan racing? Not the local member, surely (he is the leader of the Nats).
Perhaps the PwC could consult Paul Greentree, once the manager at Gosford dogs and then secretary at Queanbeyan gallops. He now runs tours to Hunter region horse studs.

5. Bella Infrared and Fernando Bale

4. Kinloch Brae and Barcia Bale

2. Dyna Double One, Bekim Bale, Djays Octane, Jarvis Bale, My Bro Fabio, Cosmic Chief, Magic Sprite, Kelsos Fusileer and Mogambo

1. College Causeway, High Earner, Pure Octane, Crump, Spring Gun, Banjo Boy, Lochinvar Marlow, Keybow, Collision and Oaks Road

Other than Bella Infrared every sire is pretty evenly represented to the amount of services they would have had.

They're slowing down after 50 metres and regardless of the 'trip' they still reach top speed at around 50 metres, except in staying races, where the majority are bludgers that don't ever reach top speed.

As for trends, they don't interest me. All that matters is that dogs chase hard and come home safe. One thing we agree on though is that boardrooms don't have the interests of greyhound racing enthusiasts as their main priority, which is why I handed in my registration a few weeks ago. It's ridiculous!