Why do so many people think dogs are not capable of running 500m 2 or 3 times a week ! Many breeds of dogs do this short run on a daily basis ! How many miles a week does any dog do chasing a ball in the park on a daily basis ! The problem is not the amount of running physically it is the mental effect. Very hard to keep many dogs chasing for no reward. 6 runs in a five week month is no hardship for any dog, most would thrive on it.

1. Metabolism.
2. I would rather hear a reply from a vet experienced in the area.
3. Any evidence I have ever seen suggests the AVERAGE grey needs 7 days to properly replenish the juices.
4. Other vet evidence (Dr John Kohnke) points out that an LAW performance drags much more out of a dog as it is pulling out 100% constantly.
5. While no two dogs are the same, my surveys show that the majority cannot maintain peak performance if racing twice weekly.
6. In Oz, top racers never go round more often than once a week. Lesser lights often do, presumably just in the hope of picking up place money or "petrol money".
7. Many breeds cover big distances but not at top speed.
8. Many greys are not capable of running a strong 500m at all, let alone 2 or 3 times a week. That's why there are lots of shorter races.
9. It depends on whether you want excellence or not.
10. Maybe UK dogs are tougher than those in Oz?
11. Footballers cant do it (although many are asked to).
12. Normally, horses are not asked to, and they also have periodic long spells, which greys don't.
13. How do you measure the difference between a lack of keenness and a lack of physical strength at the sharp end of the scale?
14. Federer is now skipping tournaments, realising that you can push your body too far.
15. The vast majority of tennis tournaments are best of three, not best of five.
16. Nearly all athletes, canine or human, will be competing with niggles or recovering from injury. Neither are helped by quick back-ups. If you force it, you will probably pay in later life.
17. Typically, both top dogs and top horses go to stud fairly early in their career, even when they are still capable of winning good races. It is suggested this is partly financial, partly physiological (for both sexes).
18. Typically, a dog moving up in distance might do well the first time (although usually they don't) but bomb out the next time round. They either need more conditioning or they are not suited.
19. The pattern of early education will have some influence on later performances - stress fractures? (Almost by definition, no two cases are the same).
20. I am sure there are other factors, but I badly need a cup of tea.

10 on your list.

it could be your greyhounds are as weak as the beer in OZ,

back in the day as a member of the local coursing club it was the norm to run the first round in the morning .
the second round would be run later in the day . this was not a problem.

the third round would be the next morning and so on.

most of these dogs were very tough , they needed speed plus staying power,

I can think of a race over 700 declared a no race on NGRC track, re run one and a half hours later, the time being only three quarters of a length slower than the first race ,

those were the days when a lot of 700 dogs could run over 800 or even 900.

Some of the points you make are perfectly valid although many of them are assertions, not facts. As a (former) punter, I try to deal only in facts plus some appreciation of how the dog runs its races. There is no other choice if you want to win money.

In any event, any "rules" you make can never be 100% accurate or reliable. If you get 70% or 80% right you are doing pretty well.

There are two claims I would dispute:

1. Many of the quoted examples concern interrupted activity. For example, tennis players have to battle extreme demands on endurance and explosive energy - which are at opposite ends of the scale. But they also get constant "rests" between points and games so their system, with suitable training, can adjust reasonably to demands.

2. People have been claiming since the cows came home that "the trainer knows best". The facts show that they don't or, alternatively, that they are hoping against hope that it won't matter. This is particularly evident in 700m races but must also apply to a lesser degree for shorter trips. Again, I speak of most dogs (say two thirds) not every single one. They are all different.

I still want to hear more scientific assessments of the subject.

"In summation, comments about the habit of backing up dogs too quickly in staying races generally favour a ban on the practice. Some disagree, saying trainers know best or that past years contained dogs which could do it without a problem.

In reality, the evidence is not on the side of trainers knowing best. It reminds me of two stories. Once, after writing in another paper, a trainer was furious when I was critical of him racing a bitch on both Saturday and Monday, each over 720m at Wentworth Park (the racing dates were different then). He was cranky because he said he had stayed up all Saturday night massaging and caring for his dog to make sure it was in good nick. It failed the second time but the real point was that he would have no way of properly assessing the dogs actual condition. Looks are one thing, the insides another.

And he missed the big point. Even if he knew, the dogs fitness would still be a query in the minds of punters (and stewards), who should be the main priorities in these cases. After all, industry success rests on the public having confidence in trainers abilities and integrity.

The other example involved the practices of a veteran trainer in another state with a kennel of a dozen or so dogs, including one very smart and successful bitch. The good one never raced more than once a week. The others normally started at least twice a week, occasionally three times, nearly always running 6th, 7th and 8th. What was he seeking? Petrol money perhaps, but who knows?

As for old time dogs, I always remember a comment by the late Bill Pearson, a legend of the game and founder of the Gold Guide and National Tabform. They are not as robust as they used to be, he said. Of course, thats just the tip of the iceberg as there have been major shifts in breeding patterns since then, obvious even to an amateur like me. The follow-up question to that is what are we doing about it? Is it a good thing? If not, what might happen to the breed if nothing is done? Runners fading at the end of staying races is just one illustration.

Are Dogs the same as Humans?

The Wanderers soccer club, recently Asian Champions, has yet to win a match in the A-League, following what The Australian called their recent murderous travelling and playing schedule

AFL and NRL teams are notoriously unable to show their best after a short 5-day gap.

Also from The Australian.

Acupuncturist Ross Barr describes the body as running off two batteries: a general, day-to-day one and a reserve battery powered by the kidneys. You can charge the first one with good food, rest, sleep and a healthy lifestyle. But if youre feeling run-down and dont manage to refuel, then you can slip into the reserve battery. This is your adrenal system, which takes more than a bowl of pasta and a good nights sleep to recharge."

"The case of Space Star, and the staying fraternity in general, is interesting. This dog moved up to the staying caper only last August after some record breaking middle distance runs at the NSW provincials. Since then, it has dominated staying races at four tracks in three states, highlighted by an amazing effort in February to break Nellie Noodles longstanding record at The Meadows running 41.93.

Nevertheless, its times have been irregular, even when winning. That run at The Meadows was followed seven days later by an ordinary loss at the same track, 10 lengths slower than its own record. Could the first run have been what vet Dr John Kohnke termed a gutbuster where dogs leading all the way pull out all the stops but then find it hard to repeat the effort the following week?

Actually, that pattern is consistent with much of Space Stars history. In August 2014 it won well at Wenty then failed the following week. A September 2014 win was followed by three failures. In November 2014 it won at Sandown then failed the next week.

Even as it matured, the majority of its wins have been followed by a much slower run the following week notably at Wenty in January 2015, in March/April 2015 at Wenty and again just now in the Gold Cup at Wenty when it ran five lengths slower than in its heat. Others where it continued winning in similar times were because the base time was pretty average in the first place. The occasional longer break than seven days also helped.

Last Saturdays Gold Cup at Wenty painted the picture. Not only was Space Stars run slower, but so were all the others in the race. Their final times ranged from five to 15 lengths slower than what they ran in the heats. That included Sweet It Is which could manage only a distant 4th place, a full second slower than in its heat. Unusually for it, the bitch was clearly not back to its normal hard running fitness level after a seasonal holiday (never mind the bumps that happens in all its races, mostly self-inflicted). It did go well in its heat, but not in the final.

Wenty was wet but there is no indication that affected times. All tracks are wet to some degree. Over the sprint trip, Uno Suzie equalled its recent best time in a 29.76 win, for example.

For the umpteenth time, we have more hard evidence that the vast majority of dogs cannot repeat staying runs when they have only seven days to recover. No matter what their basic ability, they just cant do it. Further, it is grossly misleading for some to claim that individual trainers are best placed to assess their dogs endurance capability. They may well be able to rub them down and check for problems but they have no way of knowing what is happening inside the body. Only exhaustive blood and other tests could reveal that but we have yet to hear of anyone doing so on a regular basis. Apart from anything else, it is expensive to carry out.

Finally, irrespective of its excellent performances, Space Stars domination of the staying ranks tells us emphatically that the opposition is just not up to scratch. At best they can pull out one good run yet never repeat it. More often they just plod.

Avoiding quick back-ups is a no-brainer if you want to get the best out of a stayer. Unfortunately, clubs and authorities are just as guilty as trainers in asking dogs to do the impossible.

Probably of more importance is a basic policy question. Do we want to take serious steps towards building up the ranks of dogs with real stamina? The long term industry concentration on fast beginners is perhaps understandable if you want to grab quick returns but it is obviously doing no good for the staying ranks. Even the great Miata was a breeding accident as she had no staying experience in her background.

So far, the only effort mounted by racing authorities is to pay bonus prize money for longer races. But how do you make a silk purse out of a sows ear? If the dog cant stay, it cant stay. Moreover, much 700-metre racing has got to the ridiculous stage where dogs are going up and down in the one spot on the home turn, clearly having reached their limits. Indeed, last Saturdays 5th grade 725-metre race at The Meadows was farcical when the two Quinella dogs were running stone motherless as they went into the home turn, only for the leading four to collapse like a house of cards. They ran a pedestrian 43.42.

Surely we have got to the stage where accidental progress is not good enough? What we need are hard hitting five and ten year plans to bring about some real gains".

I have pulled you up on this before in a previous post, you are completely wrong on this score as I went to great lengths to go back 3 generations in her family to show you how much staying blood was in her family

However, you continue to print mistruths and whinge completely about the current class of stayers

The only solution you have is to race them less and also to pay them less prizemoney ignoring the longer time it takes to get a dog mature enough to run over more distance and higher level of training that they require to get to a level of fitness to run 700m and then to maintain that fitness

Believe me if we went that way, we would have even less stayers than what we have now

To maintain a pool of staying dogs they need regular racing over 600m and 700m and also financial rewards to entice trainers to project their dogs over the distance and also to compensate them for the additional effort required to bring them to that level.

The only thing we seem to agree on is that the focus on breeding is on early speed and sprinting when there could be a greater focus placed on breeding stouter progeny

Perhaps a breeders bonus for winners of 600m+ races coordinated per State could be in order to improve the pool of stayers as well over a 5 year period and beyond

The rest of it, you are barking up the wrong tree

Agree Sandro.

Sandro,

You did and I heard but that was a long time ago. I remain a non-expert at breeding lines and normally don't talk about that area.

As for "less prize money", you have taken that out of context. I was talking about the bonus money currently going to (mostly) provincial 650m/680m races which attract many low standard dogs which cannot manage a shorter distance.

My principle was that money cannot increase a dog's staying ability - only breeding and training can do that. Therefore it is better to re-direct the cash to areas that promote that potential. Exactly what and how is for others to judge.

Those solutions might include higher prize money for certain staying distances but only as part of an overall program which has some sort of success potential. The current pattern has proved to be a failure. In that vein, I also suggested a look at halving prize money for 400m and below and doubling it for longer trips.

One reason for that was that it is remarkable the large number of dogs that fade over the 500s. That's not a good sign.

As for over-racing - that is a no-brainer. Physically, most can't back up quickly and there is a bucketful of evidence to show that, irrespective of the other qualities of the dog.

As for "Believe me if we went that way, we would have even less stayers than what we have now", I would guess I could count the number of real "stayers" today on my fingers. The rest are 600m dogs which plod to the line. So we have little to lose by changing the system. If that is a "whinge" then so be it.

Face it, this is the pool of stayers we have

Until breeders, trainers and owners start directing their efforts in breeding, training and development of stayers it will be a spiralling circle downwards

Currently, any of the top stayers in NSW are forced out of the state because our Powers that be and probably the TAB won't allow 4 or 5 dog staying fields graded from the top down

Other states can put them on in their main night of racing i.e. SA & WA, what's wrong with NSW?

Our real good stayers eventually all end up in Victoria

If there is no incentive to put your dog over a distance, then chances are, it won't be because of lack of races, especially in the lower grades

As painful as it may be for you to punt on or watch and continually shake your finger at, we need these low grade 600m+ races to get the pool of stayers up and running by giving them a circuit of races to develop in

I 100% agree with you that it all starts from the breeders who should be enticed to breed stayers, that's why I have suggested a nationwide breeders bonus for winners of 600m+

And that may be a way of promoting breeding of distance dogs

But whats in it for the trainers and the owners who buy these pups?

They also need to be compensated for the greater effort and patience required to own and train a stayer

But you can't make people do it, you can only entice them to do it and that is by providing additional prizemoney and bonuses and also providing greater opportunities for them to compete

Its not the chicken and egg argument here

Here we definitely need the eggs to help rebuild the chicken

No doubt.

My main point - then and now - is that managing change has to be a broadly-based deal - a package.

This thread is about over-racing, with stamina, distance capability and breeding natural flow-ons. Each one affects the others.

Yet authorities persist in casually treating a symptom - or even ignoring it - and hoping the problem will go away. It never does. The disease is still there and getting worse, as it must.

They have totally ignored the breed's loss of stamina, and therefore cannot know the reasons for it. They have addressed the massive drop in breeding levels (both short and long term) by near irrelevant fiddling at the edges (eg reducing some fees). They whacked in rules about cobalt and arsenic without proper or balanced evaluation of the subject, without consideration of the "unintended consequences", and without looking at the world outside. At all levels there have been huge changes in the customer profile and in the quality of the product - serious long term issues which impact on viability - but there is no evidence that these trends are known, let alone addressed. I could go on.

The end result is a dog's breakfast and an industry in decline (disguised occasionally by someone throwing some cash at it).

The industry needs (a) constant research and analysis into its key elements, (b) decent medium and long term objectives, (c) detailed plans to show how to get there, (d) regular measuring of progress, and (e) transparency and accountability in all it does.

None of these things exist today. So the average race is getting shorter, the average dog is getting weaker, the average gambler has not a clue about what he is doing, the public don't like us much, and the eight state and territory authorities all have different ideas and rules. But here's a million bucks to take your mind off things.

It does not help that the odd trainer claims dogs can race two or three times weekly without losing any form. (See above).

Incidentally, today's chicken is a result of decades of research, genetic studies and trials as well as optimal feeding and husbandry practices in a highly competitive and highly regulated sector. That's why it is the cheapest and most popular meat on the shelves. It also has more taste than pork or beef. We wish!

Hi Bruce.
you have put some very good points of debate up over the years.

however on the point of stayers not backing up in OZ ,i put forward one reason that this may be the case .

your hounds have to run on tracks that have a very hard surface,because of the extra distance covered,i suspect they get jarred up a lot more than hounds in UK.
i can assure you this was never the case with my 700- 800 -900 dogs of many years ago.

also very sharp and sudden pulling up into catching pen does not help at all. this practice must increase the injuries to the hounds.

Jarring is an interesting point but not one I am qualified to comment on. In any event, it would need serious study by vets/trainers to validate the theory. I note it is also a well known factor in horses - especially two-year-olds - so a check of greyhound education and early training would be relevant. (A NZ vet study indicated a prevalence of hairline cracks - ie otherwise unidentified - amongst youngsters who were continually subject to turns in one direction only).

Additionally, tracks no doubt vary hugely due to differing age/materiels/maintenance/time since last harrowing/etc. Big dogs and little bitches are another variable (I can recall massive changes along those lines when Wenty first moved from grass to loam. The dainty bitches were putting their paws down deep in the loam and (relatively) losing ground).

Anyway, all this is part of a story. It is why I have been calling for years for authorities to set up an independent panel to report annually on THE STATE OF THE BREED. What are the trends? Today's events are the culmination of a thousand experiences around the nation (and the world) yet bringing all these together is impossible without serious and continuing study.

No doubt surfaces would be part of the answer but I suspect breeding and training would have far more to do with the outcome. So, too, economics and common sense.

We live in a greyhound world where technology has already had a huge influence on the greyhound product - from training techniques to husbandry to feeds to medicines to veterinary knowledge to AI to transport, and so on and so forth - yet we are virtually ignoring a fundamental shift in the nature of the breed. Risky! And illogical!

Hi Dennis,
One of the best trackers in recent years had no trouble running 6 races in a month , most of the time he ran 4 or 5 times a month.
Note that all races were over a stiff 533 mts on a slow surface in the USA.
He won 70 races out of 100 . all box draws came alike to this amazing hound .
this dog will be mist by the greyhound world.
At least he proved his self in OZ as sire of track record holder
in WA

BELLA INFRARED.

R.I.P

Nathan,

And your point is...?