What would really help the club is to totally rebuild the track. I long ago stopped even watching Dapto races - I get depressed.

Otherwise, there are plenty of 400s around - three in the general area in fact. 300m dogs are best suited in the far country non-tabs.

Appin is also overdue for a re-start.

what a stupid statement Bruce. (i'll explain)

1. what's best for the industry? what's best for the industry is to have full fields no matter what distance. also what's best for the industry is to give every dog a chance of racing no matter if it is best suited over 200m or 900m

2. Dapto wasn't rebuilt that long ago and is one of NSW better tracks, I got a feeling you were already depressed.

3. there are plenty of 400s around. yes but most of them are bend starts (doesn't take long to break a young dogs confidence, already enough nonnies without adding good chasing dogs to it). only way to avoid a bend start 400m is to go to a one turn track where once again a lot of short coursers are at a huge disadvantage.

4. yes appin is overdue for a restart, but it's unlikely to happen because eventually non tabs will go

End of rant. To answer the original question yes dapto would put on a 300 maiden if there was enough noms and not enough longer distance noms

Agree with this totally.

All well and good to say 'No we cant run that or we shouldn't run that' its now a case of we have to run whatever we can to get the dogs to fill fields. We can't be picky with what we have because.. well.. we don't have a choice cause of lack of numbers.

Gotta leave some of the thinking of the past and people set in their ways, and adapt to what we have in front of us

Unfortunately, that answer will degrade the concept of greyhound racing as we know it. 300m races are poor tests of everything except the ability to jump - itself not highly predictable. Sure, many mugs will not care too much but serious punters will (wherever they have gone to) and so eventually will anyone trying to advance the breed - or even training techniques.

Bear in mind that we are already in a long term decline in the distance of the average race.

Dapto has now been rebuilt three times. On each occasion we ended up with pretty much what was there before, smoothed over a bit. A terrible waste of money. Try watching a few 520m starts - 1 and 2 mostly veer right, thereby crowding up the rest of the field. That's why winners from 8 are much higher than normal. The reason is simple - the boxes are aligned with the running rail rather than being separated by 1 or 2 metres. To fix that, the entire track needs to be shifted to the north and the road into the kennels moved.

Second, one turn tracks can never offer ideal layouts for 400m racing - eg the Bulli start is on top of the nearby turn. Goulbourn and Nowra are more acceptable.

Third, horrible as it sounds, the only practicable answers to a shortage of dogs is either to run fewer races or reduce all of them to 6 runners (SA?). Concurrently, existing tracks badly need rebuilding sensibly to remove artificial stimulants to interference. So far, despite all the fancy talk, that has yet to happen.

Indeed, the reverse has occurred as Gosford replaced a bend start 400m with a bend start 388m. How dumb is that? Gardens replaced a bend start 413m with a marginally better bend start 400m. Richmond - despite a rebuilding - put back one of the worst 400m starts in the country.

what shall we do with all these short course dogs?
any suggestions?

they were bred by the same breeders
what makes you think the breeders are suddenly going to improve the number of 500m + dogs
in the meantime ????

They were at a time when anyone could use different techniques or substances were more rampant then now !

How dont you understand the period of time you love or keep referring to (with more consistency and predictability to bet on ) had more assistance in keeping their hounds chasing ? Or pushing them an extra 80 mtr was no drama

The tracks you refer to you wouldnt even have a clue or have ever even boxed a dog there
I wont even get into that and tare it apart

Note The sires on offer now are introducing strength and these will be on show and be more occurring in the next 2-4 years

Question to the wizz

Where do you think all these short coursers have come from ?
Follow the genetics bud , has nothing to do with the blokes holding the leads today

Whats happening today is a result of a generation before , this doesnt occur overnight and either does fixing it !

We are just the idiots trying to reverse the dilemma on a restricted regime to boot
And cleanly aswell , pretty important that part ,as false accolades can also be of detriment to a breed as a whole ...... as your seeing

Until then every month you can keep blowing hot air

No idea

The fundamental influence is cash. State authorities are hell bent on chasing it for any reason at all - it makes their annual reports look good.

To bring that about, they have progressively moved crook tracks/distances into the TAB ranks. What were genuine bush standards suddenly became good class betting mediums. They brought with them dogs that could barely run 400, let alone 500. Then, as overall numbers fell, these became frontline offerings. Some clubs even added shorter trips to satisfy that demand, others increased what they already had.

Here's one illustration. Pre-flood, when the Bulli club was a genuine club (not GBOTA) a 400m race was as rare as hens teeth. Management learnt that 472m and longer races always brought in more money. Once GBOTA took over, bung rules applied and 400m races multiplied.

While all this is going on, the continuing fall in breeding numbers (both pre- and post-live baiting), coupled with C Class and Tier 3 grades, encouraged more and more low standard dogs to enter the TAB ranks. Now it's regarded as normal. Hence the overall drop in field quality.

Concurrently, lower race standards (plus poor tracks) discouraged serious punters. Fortunately (?) they were replaced by mugs in pubs so overall takings held up. However, that may be the last rabbit to be pulled out of the hat.

Overall, Nathan is dead right ...

"Whats happening today is a result of a generation before , this doesnt occur overnight and either does fixing it !"

But who is to fix it? Authorities seem unaware of the trends and therefore a correction is hard to see.

A couple of generations ago, PAW noted the trends and took action (USA blood etc) so now he has good numbers of 500m dogs - even on occasions 700m dogs which he does not aspire to. To some extent, that pattern in emerging again today but more generally.

But, whatever happens in those areas, we still have a numbers problem to deal with. Tied up with that is a quality issue in that we are placing slower dogs with fast ones and promoting weaker dogs into distances they cannot handle.

I nominated fewer races as one short term option - ie enough only to satisfy the demand from better dogs and thereby offer a more attractive product to the public.

Necessarily, to go with that, country dogs have to be returned to the country, so to speak. If that cuts prize money to $100 or so, tough. That's what it's got to be. Bush football players don't get paid $500,000 a year either. But they do get an opportunity to move up and onwards.

Whatever, move 300m racing out of the limelight. It can do no good. There is no upside. None.

PS To some extent, I sympathise with trainers who are the meat in the sandwich. They have to make the best of what is on offer. However, you cannot run an industry just for them. The world does not owe them a living. The guiding factor has to be the dog itself - not just on welfare grounds but also on quality grounds. The breed constitutes the product and the customer decides what is good about it.

I am sincerely hoping that the prizemoney is staggered according to the distance bands

If it is not, then I believe there will be full meetings of 300-400m dogs which will suit all the trainers who don't want to work their dogs to race over 500m+

Very poor situation for NSW, if that eventuates

Are you not aware the only thing a trainer strives for is a 500-700 racer ?

So even when starting on pretraining and all the build up work for months that it takes
The trainers fingers are crossed for one result !

It aint so he can race a dog twice a week from a bend , really ?

Maybe you two fellas can come to Appin tues thur sat and sit with us all at 5:30 am
When the First person usually arrives before gates open at 7:30 am and tell us where we are all going wrong and how lazy we are to not keep pushing a dog past its ability to get the not so favoured distance of 500 where you can actually earn a qiud or not see your dog get belted on a bend ?

No of course we dont want that scenario or type of dog .....this sentence is called being facetious ( smart arse)

Are yous seriously looking at what you are writing

Trainers running sprinters every 3-4 days is suitable as its what they would do in a work out anyway !
It has no bearing on being a preference to what the trainers wants or how he has influenced his Dogs genetics to a down grade of 500 to drop to 400 ????

But yes maybe you are correct , maybe hes not reading his Dogs run home times correctly and cant devise what is strong or weak ,my mistake ,how silly of me

Again Id be glad to meet yous at Appin between 5-6 am where they are being pushed up a 30 degree hill
Maybe they should open it every day for us to flog em every day ...... maybe thats where we are going wrong ......

There is a spot for short coursers and it can be looked upon qiute nice

Look at healsville , its a wonderful track and a lovely day out for kids and familys
If the correct day is found then this is its spot
Sat or sun for the families and the more then likely type of owners who have these chasers

Goulburn will have a straight one day and theyd be mad not to utilise it for weekends

They are a wonderful chaser Bruce and a positive for the industry,ask the younger generation watching them fly past em up a straight if theyre a blight or negative thing

Unreal ?????? this topics thoughts have lost me .... Im out

Don''t take it so personally

Who said there wasn't a spot for short coursers?

I know there are dogs that can't run 500m , I have bred them and owned and trained them and still have one of them now and I am sure I will have them in the future, its just the way it is

However, greyhound racing classic distances are 500m and I believe that base is being eroded away slowly and surely by firstly breeders who breed for the short course and secondly by trainers who don't push their dogs to their capabilities and its mainly the younger trainers who don't have the benefit of being mentored by someone who knew how to get more distance out of their dogs and to prefect that skill.

This base doesn;t need to be further eroded by the boffins at GRNSW that are all about filling fields to help the TAB out and not having due consideration for the quality of the greyhounds being bred, raced and trained.

And yes, I have done the Appin trialling sessions many times in the past when I was training dogs and will do again, if it exists, when I resume training post retirement from my work/business

And I will be very happy to join you there

And PS I have done the Richmond, and the Bulli, and the Wentworth Park, and the Dapto and the Gosford training sessions and all the little trial tracks in between that used to exist before we had to go to racetracks to trial

If you think what I say doesn't make sense then look around you at all the meetings and then go to the Sydney Morning Herald archives and look up the racefields from 15-20 years ago

You will see what I am saying then

In any case, its nothing personal, so have a good day

Hi Sandro

GData is one big conversation, I dont take it personally, I merely state the opposite to an already view or opinion

The above mentions that there are trainers who dont wish to work their dogs to their full potential !

Meaning they havent being taught like you say now ..... or what you really meant which is lazy
Thats what the words Dont want to means ......... correct ?

So when I see this and think about it , its not that Im personally offended
I simply dont understand that train of thought by yourself even makes sense

Thats all bud , if how I write words can be direct at times , apologies

Answer to your question on who said there is no place for short coursers

Is the one who said there is no upside to these in the lime light , zero ....none

Again not being personally offended , just simply disagreeing with Bruce or this train of thought as this is why the industry has so many closed doors on itself and no clue on bringing it into the light

Cheers

Ps dont roll into Appin at 10 either when u come back
Ill be the first to call you a lazy pryck (joke)

PS i reckon Appin should be open a few days a week for trialling, as they don''t race anymore and as you say that 30 degree incline is one of the best conditioning runs in the country

The question is...will those trainers I speak of, actually take the time out to use it?

EDUCATION

Jason has a specific routine for his young dogs and all go through it over a period of about three months before starting in a race.

He usually takes a youngster after it has been broken in, spelled and then given a six to eight week stint of pre-training which involves a couple of weeks up the straight and four runs on a racetrack to give him some gauge on what times they can run.

Each pup joining his kennel gets straight into the daily routine of walking and free galloping.

I give them two runs up the 350m straight a week apart and then they go to Warragul for a 350m hand slip, he said.

That is followed by three 347m solo trials around Geelong a week apart.

They are then taken to Sandown for two handslips post to post, again a week apart.

Its then back to Warragul for a 424m solo trial and the following week for a two-dog trial over the same distance.

We then go back to Geelong for two 457m trials, one solo and the next week one in a two-dog trial, he said.

Im prepared to do that early education program. We will maybe give them a 350m run up the straight behind the drag lure between those trials.

We stop the work in the competition runs by the time we head to Warragul for the 424m trials.

Jason also likes to get two 520m trials, one each at Sandown and The Meadows, into his pups BEFORE they start racing.

I believe some people make the mistake of not stepping their dogs up to 520m soon enough, he said.
You will see them educate the pup and go straight into a race over 457m without stretching the dog to 520m.

I believe it can often teach a dog to get only 457m.

Every dog can run 520m, some faster than others.

I believe it is important to get a dog up to 520m, generally about 19 or 20 months.

I also believe a lot of people are too soft on their dogs.

After those two 520m trials we then have a very fit dog, ready to race and we then start to look around for a race.

Because many of the dogs Jason gets are Victorian bred, he will often look for added money Victorian-bred maiden series at provincial tracks.

RACING
The normal routine is kept up to every dog in the kennel every day.

We will put them on the walker and free gallop them in the acre paddock on the morning of a race, he said. We do this because we want the dogs to settle all day.

A change in routine is a good signal that something different is happening and I dont want that going on with any of my dogs.

They get worked up enough when they go to the trailer for the trip to the races.

He does change his training with stayers.

With sprinters I will give them the straight gallop on Wednesday between racing at The Meadows, but with stayers I will give them a 457m or 520m trial on the Wednesday between Saturday races.

Jason is adamant no-one can make a slow dog run fast, but just as adamant some trainers can make a fast dog run slow.

If you dont look after a dog, get them checked regularly, do the right thing by them, it can happen, he said.

He says you will know very early on if there is a good dog in the kennel by the dogs demeanour.
Most good dogs have got good habits. Pups will show you that straight away.

The Thompson/Hood kennels are full all the time. But we always have room for a fast dog.

He added he has been very fortunate to have owners ringing up constantly with the offer of dogs to train. I can honestly say I have NEVER rung to ask an owner for a dog from another trainer, he said.

Brett Lee is the best dog he has seen race. Jason trained him for only a short time at the end of his career.

The best dog I have trained throughout its career is Awesome Assassin, but Hotshow Vintage was an amazing dog as well winning six Group finals, he said.

When travelling his dogs throughout the country he says he does nothing different. I like to arrive the day before a race, he said.

I dont give the dog fluids before the plane trip but that depends on just how far the dog is flying. Some dogs adapt to flying, others dont. I believe too many people have a phobia about flying dogs, its not that difficult.

He also is adamant he never uses a hydrobath. I dont believe it is natural for a dog and I dont believe in it, he said.

My dogs are groomed every day, brushed and kept clean that way.
In summer after a race they are drenched. I dont massage at all. I would rather see the dog asleep and resting after they have raced or galloped than being massaged etc.

Thats just me and my dogs are pretty happy dogs.

Jason is meticulous around his kennels. "I even get my dog trailers detailed every month to keep them clean, he said.

His advice to young trainers starting out is to work hard and dont keep slow dogs.

If you are getting into greyhound racing professionally, it helps to have a partner who will work with you, he said.

Seona and I are a great partnership and she is the best asset I have.

He also has one permanent worker at all times in the kennels. It used to be Wayne Vasallo until he went training himself, now it is Phil Bonnacurso.

They are outstanding people and outstanding workers, said Jason.

He believes breeding is everything in successful greyhounds.

Good bloodlines will win out in the end, he says.
The broodbitch has got to be a good race bitch and got to be well bred. Good race bitches keep producing the best dogs. Just look at Peter Giles damline that comes from Floodgate.

I know some of the very best bitches have not produced as would have been expected, but generally good race bitches do.

As for stud dogs, he says temperament is everything.

Look at how many fast dogs go to stud every year, but only a few of them make it, he said.
I believe temperament has a big influence and Ive seen this proven over many years.

There are a couple of well known stud dogs about now that had very poor temperaments. I believe they will be able to produce a few with ability, but generally their stock will not live up to expectations.

Thats one reason Jason cannot wait to get El Galo (Wheres Pedro-Roxy Reason) to stud. The Gold Coast Cup winner has everything.

Just like Jason Thompson.

Nathan, I don't know how old you are or how long you have been training. It wasn't unheard of for a dog to race the morning program at Appin, back up that afternoon in a final and then back up again at Harold Park the same night over 457m. It would then be in at Wollongong on Monday or the mid-weeker at Bulli before it did it all over again the following week. Dogs were not exactly referred to as "soft" back then, they were rock hard from shear hard racing.

Where do we find those dogs nowadays?
Would a current short courser be able to handle that schedule?

Not so. It's chalk and cheese. Straight track runs are normally much tougher than circle trips over the same distance and they serve a variety of needs - up to and including conditioning for distance racing. I support them wholeheartedly and regard it as a disgrace that NSW has let them go.

Still, many trainers and trial tracks offer similar tests.

But this is a vastly different proposition to the usual 300m race - all of which involve a turn and which draw from a different pool of dogs - essentially dogs which cannot get 400m or where the trainer has not worked them up well for the longer trips (see above comments and many previously on this site).

My point is simply that the increasing proportion of 300m races and the general trend towards shorter races everywhere is a problem that should be addressed and corrected. The mob and the breed will benefit in the long run if TAB racing is all at 400m-plus. Non-TAB racing is where lesser lights should go.

If you doubt any of that, have a look at what Meadows is doing in calling for starters for trials over 460m or so. What are they looking for? (NB the start will necessarily be on a bend).

Hi tony
I havent trained long and Im 40 odd ...... forgotten

Yes Ive heard all the stories bud , thats great , and they could still do it if allowed
Your first post says they race 3 times a week !
Mighten be 3 times in one day but its along the same routine of stretching a dog imop

Heres some questions on that but

What fuel were they on mate ? I like a good story , but if your going to reminisce dont hold back on the whole story hey ! Ill remind you Poeple from that era have gone to court and admitted what they did openly , it aint pretty tony

Do you think coz a dog can run 3 times a day , do you believe its whats best for it ?or its chances of producing its best ?

Its fine you believe what you like , Im just perplexed at your theory , thats all

Back in the day your saying they were tough and ran all day , hence an overall better performing dog and could run a 470 Bulli at its third run for the day ( distance )

Yet in todays era trainers are pushing 3 runs a week into em and what ???
Just not getting the same outcome as in toughness or distance ?

Again Im perplexed.......

I mighten be from that era where pushing the limits was an art (magic fuel imop)
But racing a dog every 2-3 days in todays climate week in week out will only get u one thing , a very tired or broken dog , sorry make that 2 things , and a dog that realises qiuck smart hes never gunna get a reward and catch the thing ??

Agree disagree its how it is

I think the question youd have to ask is how many dogs does wheeler get rid of that cant run 500 to his standards ? Not how many short courses does he own , that goes to the top 20 trainers in each state

Its ok to glorify the elite trainers as they punch out each 500 mtr star,but its not the complete picture bud , no where near it
I wonder why their wonderful and you beaut 500 mtr training didnt work on all the give backs going out the back door didnt work .

Did they train those ones like all the other 2nd tier trainers who like to run their dogs 3 times a week over 300-400 mtrs ?

Like most things tony its a never ending 2 sided convo that never finds an answer

All Im saying is in a restricted environment these days , there is now limits in place that are making what this sport used to be harder then ever
Not a complaint ! I dont know any different so Im happy to keep banging my head on the wall and ask myself every night .... whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy lol
And the yesteryear folk are saying same thing and if they aint saying it , its coz theyve already walked away , too hard basket

I dont take it personally ,Im just outlining the flip side of theorys like , todays trainers are of less Knowledge or lazy or breeding is horrible in comparison to 3 decades ago ....etc etc
Thats all the biggest crock Ive ever heard and couldnt be further from the truth
The industry is working harder then ever as a whole

If your in the game still today and surviving your doing good and the dogs will be the dogs that they are , no magic knowledgeable training can ever change this
Your kidding if you think you can

The thread 297 dapto ..... there should be multiple quality class straight tracks in all states , instead of pushing in on the city tracks and taking away the highly regarded 500 mtr + races , find their own place and own it !
Make it a spectacle , I would love to see Goulburn build theirs and run it on stand alone days on a wed sat sun and the thurs left for the big track

You would see the public being more involved then ever in these racing style days
With more rehoming being a flow on effect imop due to weekends in the sun being more viable to attend opposed to mid week night viewing

Good luck cheers