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520m RACING. A thing of the past or not?page  1 2 3 4 5 


Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7376
Dogs 179 / Races 66

16 Nov 2019 12:14


 (5)
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Is the "520 metre runner", becoming a thing of the past?

Well if you take away city racing on a -
Wed - Wpk
Thu - Albion/Angle/Sandown
Sat - Cann/Wpk/Meadows
the answer is a big fat yes.

Just look at the fields at most TAB tracks. 520m racing is just a handful at best & you never see a FFA. Around 60 to 70% of all events are now raced over 400m or less. It's something NEVER ever seen before. If you take a bo-peek at the country tracks, 520m races are non-existent.

With breeding numbers still registering well below the 3000 litter mark pre-2015, 520m runners will continue to fall by the wayside imo.

And looking at breeding figures this year, we'll only see around 1700 litters whelped at an estimate, so don't expect any miracles.

Without quantity, quality will always be compromised regarding 520m racing, which has always been the holy grail of greyhound racing...and 600m & 700m is now poor at best.

So where to now because strength is disappearing and disappearing FAST?

You can't blame breeders as Dyna Double One, Barcia & Fernando Bale who are the favours on the month are presently averaging between them 27% of all litters whelped since the start of 2016. That's 1 in every 4 litters whelped.

The TOP 20 sires USED since 2016 have averaged 64.5% of all whelpings. That's every 3 litters whelped, 2 are by top 20 sires -
BARCIA BALE, FERNANDO BALE, FABREGAS, DYNA DOUBLE ONE, MY BRO FABIO, KINLOCH BRAE, MAGIC SPRITE, BANJO BOY, COSMIC RUMBLE, EL GRAND SENOR, ASTON DEE BEE, SPRING GUN, COLLISION, WORM BURNER, MEPUNGA BLAZER, ALLEN DEED, DYNA VILLA, SH AVATAR, BLACK MAGIC OPAL & OAKS ROAD.

Regarding "Brood-Bitches"....In recent times mostly quality bitches have been used for whelpings compared to yesteryear, due to the downturn in breeding. How do I know this?.....STATS. Quality brood-bitches that would have been bred with, weren't by their orignal owners....But were snapped up by those eager to grab a quality bargain bitch, forcing average bitches into early motherly retirement. But even with this outcome, still 520m racing falls.

So will we ever see 520m racing dominate again? What are the answers?

Anybody?


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1636
Dogs 0 / Races 0

16 Nov 2019 23:11


 (5)
 (0)


Steven,

I am glad a breeder/trainer is saying this. I have been pushing the same barrow for well over a decade now only to be rubbished by all and sundry. I concentrated on evidence for distance races but pointed out that any degradation in stamina had to affect shorter races as well. (See also the thread under Speed Kills).

Anyway, it’s deadly serious and concerns both numbers and quality. Both are affected by the habit of racing authorities to “administer” what is in front of them rather than “manage” it so as to better achieve the “progress and development” which they are charged with. Given the lack of purpose, the racing product has degraded slowly but steadily.

My most recent survey revealed that 64% of all races are now run over 400m or less, way more than the 50% or so of a decade ago. Of our seven capital city tracks, all but one (Sandown) are running sub-400m races, or looking into the possibility. Several provincial TAB tracks have added ultra-short races.

There is only one reason for these developments; trainers are asking for them. But, in turn, it also means that state authorities are forking out the cash to put them in.

So, if trainers are responsible for the demand they can be reacting only to one or both of two factors; either the dogs are weak or they can’t be bothered training them to run further.

I can’t respond well to the breeding factor but I can observe that sires which produce good beginners are far more popular that anything that promises some 700m capability. There is also the potential to further differentiate prize money on a dollars-for-distance basis. Greater minds than mine should be delving into this.

This will not fix the numbers problem, although a better product will help. The current challenge is to overcome economic and PR aspects which stop buyers taking an interest. This is clearly beyond the normal capacity of the bureaucracies in charge of racing. The organisational structures need radical change.

By comparison, in theory RNSW is no better off than all the other racing fiefdoms but CEO V’Landys has taken it on himself to drag the code, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century. That is, it can be done.

* * * * *

To illustrate the state of the art, consider last night’s distance race at Wenty where five runners (six drawn with one scratching) wandered around the track in 43.06 – some 24 lengths worse than the record. There was no significant interference, no falls, but this was how the code managed to chuck away $7,900 in prize money at what used to be the biggest betting venue in the country.

Some venue! That race pulled in only $5,476 on the Win tote, easily the worst of the night. Overall, the tote managed an average of just over $8,000, of which you would see only half by the time you had to place a bet. The corporates collectively (a dozen of them?) would have doubled that figure if you were prepared to risk your bet being rejected or the price being lousier than the tote.




Rob Frendo
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 259
Dogs 0 / Races 0

17 Nov 2019 07:14


 (9)
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Bruce,

Genuine question- What is the point of all of this for you? Surely their are other hobbies/sports that would make you less agitated.


John Little
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 43
Dogs 4 / Races 0

17 Nov 2019 10:02


 (8)
 (0)


Rob Frendo wrote:

Bruce,

Genuine question- What is the point of all of this for you? Surely their are other hobbies/sports that would make you less agitated.


does it matter what the point is for bruce ? he raises a lot of genuine points and all he gets is rubbished by people who supposedley have a vested interest in the sport



Tom Rees
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 26
Dogs 1 / Races 0

17 Nov 2019 10:33


 (7)
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If distance prize money was increased you would see more trainers focus on this racing in lieu of the easy dollar to chance for luck and race twice a week over the 300s and 400s



Ryan Vanderwert
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4284
Dogs 4 / Races 0

17 Nov 2019 12:16


 (2)
 (0)


steven martin wrote:

……. Regarding "Brood-Bitches"....In recent times mostly quality bitches have been used for whelpings compared to yesteryear, due to the downturn in breeding. How do I know this?.....STATS. Quality brood-bitches that would have been bred with, weren't by their orignal owners....But were snapped up by those eager to grab a quality bargain bitch, forcing average bitches into early motherly retirement. But even with this outcome, still 520m racing falls.....

That is a really sad indictment.
It's possibly a result of the policy being pushed by the ptb to breed best to the best and you wont have to answer to anyone. When the reality will become the exact opposite, i.e., what you are now seeing. Oh dear.


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17879
Dogs 14306 / Races 1817

17 Nov 2019 21:08


 (2)
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It needs a complete cultural change by all parties

Breeders need to focus more on stamina lines to breed with

Owners need to be more patient

Modern trainers are currently also being reprogrammed to go for the easy kill where they race once/twice per week over 300/400m where if they fluke the start they win and if they lose they get a decent appearance fee - they are seen to be doing the right thing, filling fields for the TAB and the clubs with minimal effort i.e. no tria;s required when the dog is fully fit and racing regularly

I say reprogrammed because trialling facilities by clubs are at a minimum these days therefore the opportunity to develop a 500m -700m dog off the track is becoming harder and harder

Its easier for the trainer to race the dog in shorter distances and pick up prizemoney and if the dog shows any signs of going to 500m they may go forward, otherwise they stick to the comfort zone they have been programmed to race on i.e 300m-400m races

Saying that, hot weather is a factor in summer, which is out of everyone's control, so trialling is restricted, but clubs could also change their culture and provide night time trialling

Most state authorities provide more prizemoney for greater distance races however GRNSW have taken a retrograde step by making them all equal

I get that it provides more money to more participants, which is a good thing.

Hopefully they will readjust soon and make the 500m and 600m and 700m higher in prizemoney without reducing the prizemoney for the other distances

The only thing left to tweak to change and force trainers to race their dogs over more distances is grading - the progression in the shorter distances to top grade should be shortened so that when these dogs win a few races they hit top grade and don't drop back fast

The aim is to force trainers to assess their distance options with the dog.

With a shortened progression to top grade in the up to 449m range and making the switch to the 450-650m band starting in 5th grade again and making the 450-650 band flatter with longer progression to top grade might entice trainers to make the switch to train their their dogs for the higher distances.

No need to change the 651m+ band at the moment as there aren't enough dogs progessing through these bands anyway.





Kevin Wright
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 5206
Dogs 1 / Races 1

17 Nov 2019 21:23


 (2)
 (0)


Sandro Bechini wrote:

It needs a complete cultural change by all parties

Breeders need to focus more on stamina lines to breed with

Owners need to be more patient

Modern trainers are currently also being reprogrammed to go for the easy kill where they race once/twice per week over 300/400m where if they fluke the start they win and if they lose they get a decent appearance fee - they are seen to be doing the right thing, filling fields for the TAB and the clubs with minimal effort i.e. no tria;s required when the dog is fully fit and racing regularly

I say reprogrammed because trialling facilities by clubs are at a minimum these days therefore the opportunity to develop a 500m -700m dog off the track is becoming harder and harder

Its easier for the trainer to race the dog in shorter distances and pick up prizemoney and if the dog shows any signs of going to 500m they may go forward, otherwise they stick to the comfort zone they have been programmed to race on i.e 300m-400m races

Saying that, hot weather is a factor in summer, which is out of everyone's control, so trialling is restricted, but clubs could also change their culture and provide night time trialling

Most state authorities provide more prizemoney for greater distance races however GRNSW have taken a retrograde step by making them all equal

I get that it provides more money to more participants, which is a good thing.

Hopefully they will readjust soon and make the 500m and 600m and 700m higher in prizemoney without reducing the prizemoney for the other distances

The only thing left to tweak to change and force trainers to race their dogs over more distances is grading - the progression in the shorter distances to top grade should be shortened so that when these dogs win a few races they hit top grade and don't drop back fast

The aim is to force trainers to assess their distance options with the dog.

With a shortened progression to top grade in the up to 449m range and making the switch to the 450-650m band starting in 5th grade again and making the 450-650 band flatter with longer progression to top grade might entice trainers to make the switch to train their their dogs for the higher distances.

No need to change the 651m+ band at the moment as there aren't enough dogs progessing through these bands anyway.


Everyone is spot on ..

What would change the direction of trainers mind set overnight ...MONEY ..

Pay all dogs entered over 700 Meters $250 starters fee plus travel allowance ..
600M $200
500 $150


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1636
Dogs 0 / Races 0

17 Nov 2019 21:59


 (6)
 (0)


Rob Frendo wrote:

Bruce,

Genuine question- What is the point of all of this for you? Surely their are other hobbies/sports that would make you less agitated.

Genuine answer.

1. Agitated is your word. I happen to enjoy the sport, as I have all my life.
2. It has been a part occupation for me for a very long time.
3. The industry is run badly and needs improvement.
4. The industry routinely hides/ignores the truth and it needs to be outed.
5. This website is dominated by breeders/trainers so it needs balance. (It is supposed to be for "enthusiasts").
6. The industry is highly introverted which is mainly why it has got into so much strife over the years. Still is.
7. The industry has two prime assets which are being wasted - a core of good dogs and a core of skilled trainers. I hate to see waste.
8. Like many Australians I like a punt (or used to) and I object to the poor planning and decision-making which has forced me to quit doing that.
9. I do enjoy other sports and occasionally express a view on them too. Is it OK to cheer a brilliant try-scoring effort or applaud a beautifully timed forehand? To this day I can still feel the thump as the ball met the middle of my bat and roared away to the boundary. That is irreplaceable.
10. If you are not keen, what are you?




Simon Moore
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2253
Dogs 32 / Races 393

17 Nov 2019 22:22


 (5)
 (0)


making equal prizemoney for 300m and 520m is simply dumb and if that is not altered than it will only get worse.

lack of racing stock is largely to blame too most likely.

surely they are the main two problems.

although having to teach dogs to bite on to a stuffed toy when breaking in must be making it hard to get dogs to chase for 520m too.




Simon Moore
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2253
Dogs 32 / Races 393

17 Nov 2019 22:25


 (4)
 (0)


Rob Frendo wrote:

Bruce,

Genuine question- What is the point of all of this for you? Surely their are other hobbies/sports that would make you less agitated.


pmsl.



Jamie Quinlivian
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7059
Dogs 10 / Races 0

17 Nov 2019 22:54


 (3)
 (0)


Bruce Teague wrote:

5. This website is dominated by breeders/trainers so it needs balance. (It is supposed to be for "enthusiasts").

Very few trainers on here Bruce.

What I can see in Victoria is a lot of 425m-460m opportunities for dogs.
So many series races. Like maidens, 1-4 wins, grade 6/7, grade 5. All heat/final series.
So there is the opportunity to build a nice career around the provincial tracks. Obviously getting to the city is the goal but if your dog is not quite a city class, you are always going to come into a field where there are some very good dogs.

If you have a good speedy dog who can win grade 5 over 390m and 450m at each track, you are looking at a 20 win $40k career in Vic.




Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1636
Dogs 0 / Races 0

18 Nov 2019 02:57


 (4)
 (0)


Jamie,

I get the message. What I would add is that long term Vic policy has been to facilitate a dog pursuing more and more short races - by definition that is what is mostly available at the provincials. This is accomplished by offering more excuses - as you listed - to stay with the provincials and the short races.

Consequently, all the oddball races (GR6, Tier3, Limited Wins, Win at each track) have overwhelmed a system which once offered Maiden plus five Grades - full stop. Which is better? Put another way, is one system better for owners/trainers but not the public or the overall industry? Or the reverse?

My basic principle is that we should always give preference to choosing EXCELLENCE. That should apply for both city and provincial racing yet now both are suffering.

One Vic example of that is the decision in the 2000s to create the "Provincial" meetings at each of the city clubs - initially at sub-provincial money but soon switched to equal-provincial money. That had the effect of taking many useful provincial dogs away to fill the city ranks, presumably hoping they would then turn into good 500m racers. I don't think that has worked. Rather they are no more than copies of provincials.

The outcome is to offer so-so city racing, including many Maidens, and lower quality provincial racing. In turn that made both poorer betting propositions. My vote would go to measures designed to bolster provincial racing at least at half the centres, but desirably over 450m or more.

Anyway, what we have now is a fruit salad which tends to lessen the attractions of either option. On top of that, those 390m or shorter trips are a menace due to higher interference and/or a bias in favour of good beginners rather than those with 500m potential, which is what this thread is about.

However, I agree with the other submissions here which call for much more differentiation in prize money. I would halve the



Ryan Vanderwert
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4284
Dogs 4 / Races 0

18 Nov 2019 04:49


 (3)
 (0)


have g-data found a way to cap a posters words?
omg....glory! glory!



Malcolm Smart
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 12416
Dogs 19 / Races 34

18 Nov 2019 04:55


 (0)
 (0)


Ryan Vanderwert wrote:

have g-data found a way to cap a posters words?
omg....glory! glory!

ROFLMAO.....:-)



Terry Jordan
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 4090
Dogs 0 / Races 0

18 Nov 2019 05:23


 (0)
 (0)


Malcolm Smart wrote:

Ryan Vanderwert wrote:

have g-data found a way to cap a posters words?
omg....glory! glory!

Malcolm are you missing "Ivan"?

ROFLMAO.....:-)





Graeme Beasley
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3195
Dogs 27 / Races 5

18 Nov 2019 08:06


 (5)
 (0)


Tom Rees wrote:

If distance prize money was increased you would see more trainers focus on this racing in lieu of the easy dollar to chance for luck and race twice a week over the 300s and 400s


That's already been tried with disastrous results. People have been trying to turn bludgers into RACE dogs using any means possible, but not necessarily legal, and it doesn't work, in greyhound racing.

As for the OP it seems Steve also needs to go back further than the 1970's to see that racing over staying distances was nothing more than a novelty. (Real) greyhounds are chasers before anything else and the majority of stayers have ALWAYS been bludgers.


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17879
Dogs 14306 / Races 1817

18 Nov 2019 11:17


 (1)
 (0)


steven martin wrote:

Is the "520 metre runner", becoming a thing of the past?

Well if you take away city racing on a -
Wed - Wpk
Thu - Albion/Angle/Sandown
Sat - Cann/Wpk/Meadows
the answer is a big fat yes.

Just look at the fields at most TAB tracks. 520m racing is just a handful at best & you never see a FFA. Around 60 to 70% of all events are now raced over 400m or less. It's something NEVER ever seen before. If you take a bo-peek at the country tracks, 520m races are non-existent.

With breeding numbers still registering well below the 3000 litter mark pre-2015, 520m runners will continue to fall by the wayside imo.

And looking at breeding figures this year, we'll only see around 1700 litters whelped at an estimate, so don't expect any miracles.

Without quantity, quality will always be compromised regarding 520m racing, which has always been the holy grail of greyhound racing...and 600m & 700m is now poor at best.

So where to now because strength is disappearing and disappearing FAST?

You can't blame breeders as Dyna Double One, Barcia & Fernando Bale who are the favours on the month are presently averaging between them 27% of all litters whelped since the start of 2016. That's 1 in every 4 litters whelped.

The TOP 20 sires USED since 2016 have averaged 64.5% of all whelpings. That's every 3 litters whelped, 2 are by top 20 sires -
BARCIA BALE, FERNANDO BALE, FABREGAS, DYNA DOUBLE ONE, MY BRO FABIO, KINLOCH BRAE, MAGIC SPRITE, BANJO BOY, COSMIC RUMBLE, EL GRAND SENOR, ASTON DEE BEE, SPRING GUN, COLLISION, WORM BURNER, MEPUNGA BLAZER, ALLEN DEED, DYNA VILLA, SH AVATAR, BLACK MAGIC OPAL & OAKS ROAD.

Regarding "Brood-Bitches"....In recent times mostly quality bitches have been used for whelpings compared to yesteryear, due to the downturn in breeding. How do I know this?.....STATS. Quality brood-bitches that would have been bred with, weren't by their orignal owners....But were snapped up by those eager to grab a quality bargain bitch, forcing average bitches into early motherly retirement. But even with this outcome, still 520m racing falls.

So will we ever see 520m racing dominate again? What are the answers?

Anybody?

Steve

The way things are going 520m dogs will be the freaks of the breed



Rob Frendo
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 259
Dogs 0 / Races 0

18 Nov 2019 11:44


 (0)
 (0)


Bruce Teague wrote:

Rob Frendo wrote:

Bruce,

Genuine question- What is the point of all of this for you? Surely their are other hobbies/sports that would make you less agitated.

Genuine answer.

1. Agitated is your word. I happen to enjoy the sport, as I have all my life.
2. It has been a part occupation for me for a very long time.
3. The industry is run badly and needs improvement.
4. The industry routinely hides/ignores the truth and it needs to be outed.
5. This website is dominated by breeders/trainers so it needs balance. (It is supposed to be for "enthusiasts").
6. The industry is highly introverted which is mainly why it has got into so much strife over the years. Still is.
7. The industry has two prime assets which are being wasted - a core of good dogs and a core of skilled trainers. I hate to see waste.
8. Like many Australians I like a punt (or used to) and I object to the poor planning and decision-making which has forced me to quit doing that.
9. I do enjoy other sports and occasionally express a view on them too. Is it OK to cheer a brilliant try-scoring effort or applaud a beautifully timed forehand? To this day I can still feel the thump as the ball met the middle of my bat and roared away to the boundary. That is irreplaceable.
10. If you are not keen, what are you?

Thx Bruce - You raise a bunch of great points, just want to ensure the good is outweighing the bad and you still find enjoyment. Unfortunately for me I have very low expectations of governing bodies in general so seldomly disappointed.



Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7376
Dogs 179 / Races 66

18 Nov 2019 12:20


 (2)
 (0)


Graeme Beasley wrote:

Steve also needs to go back further than the 1970's to see that racing over staying distances was nothing more than a novelty. (Real) greyhounds are chasers before anything else and the majority of stayers have ALWAYS been bludgers.


That's why this topic is about 520m racing Graeme (not staying distance) because today's 520m races is fast becoming just what you have stated. Made up of mostly Bludgers.

Sandro Bechini wrote:

Steve

The way things are going 520m dogs will be the freaks of the breed

Exactly Sandro. I remember going to Wpk & Hpk in the late 70's, 80's and the race card would consist of 6 or 7 - 530/457m & 3 or 4 - 722/732m. It won't be long before we'll be seeing 3 or 4 - 515/520m & the rest 300/400m sprints. Hardly entertaining in my books.

Thx Bruce for posting on topic but as we're seeing now, the decline in breeding is bringing forth undesirable traits on TAB tracks that were only witness on the country circuit...usually race 15 to 20. But we don't have any other choice ATM if we want to fulfil TAB commitments, and the future at present doesn't look over exciting either I can tell ya.

Tom Rees wrote:

If distance prize money was increased you would see more trainers focus on this racing in lieu of the easy dollar to chance for luck and race twice a week over the 300s and 400s


If the majority of today's breed could run further than 420m, this would work...........but there no chance of that happening Tom.

Kevin Wright wrote:

Pay all dogs entered over 700 Meters $250 starters fee plus travel allowance ..
600M $200
500 $150

Not a bad suggestion Kev but IMO it would only help 520m racing slightly. 600m & 700m metre racing north or west of the place to be (Melbourne) is a basket-case.

Now can anyone answer my question. How are we going to fix this dominance of 300/400m racing when breeding numbers are, and will remain massively below 2015 breeding levels?

Anyone????

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