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520m RACING. A thing of the past or not?page  1 2 3 4 5 

Rob Horne
Australia
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Posts 500
Dogs 1 / Races 3

19 Nov 2019 20:29


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Devils advocate:

If the local breed has a bias towards short course racers. Why not create city class options over the sprint (400m say).

On could argue thatís were the majority of dogs are & therefore where competition is the greatest.

# Itís all a matter of perception - is short course racing really that wrong? Or is that just your own pre-bias based upon status quo thinking & romanticising the past.


Geoff Collins
(Verified User)
Posts 1938
Dogs 241 / Races 30

19 Nov 2019 21:32


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At Warrnambool recently .. a 5 dog 650m race turned over $36k .. a 6 dog 650m race held over 29k and the 390m races held around $21k .. serious punters donít bet on 400m races Ö most punters I know donít even watch them Ö I donít

Distance racing is our industryís BEST earner

Yet there are no distance boxes at Horsham .. none at Murray Bridge Ö Traralgonís longest distance will be 500m and I understand that there will be none at Goulbourn

We are not supporting the product that turns over the most money Ö that is ridiculous !!!

There are less injuries with distance racing .. the anti-racing groups are logging every injury that occurs on every track and using them as a further reason racing should close
Distance racing is the industryís SAFEST product

It is our best earner and our safest product .. make it viable and PROMOTE IT !!




Kevin Wright
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 5208
Dogs 1 / Races 1

19 Nov 2019 21:46


 (1)
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Geoff Collins wrote:

At Warrnambool recently .. a 5 dog 650m race turned over $36k .. a 6 dog 650m race held over 29k and the 390m races held around $21k .. serious punters donít bet on 400m races Ö most punters I know donít even watch them Ö I donít

Distance racing is our industryís BEST earner

Yet there are no distance boxes at Horsham .. none at Murray Bridge Ö Traralgonís longest distance will be 500m and I understand that there will be none at Goulbourn

We are not supporting the product that turns over the most money Ö that is ridiculous !!!

There are less injuries with distance racing .. the anti-racing groups are logging every injury that occurs on every track and using them as a further reason racing should close
Distance racing is the industryís SAFEST product

It is our best earner and our safest product .. make it viable and PROMOTE IT !!


Nice factual post Geoff ...Distance racing by far is the safest racing there is ...
We do need to promote the Country area's a lot more maybe more Country to city heat finals would work .

Shepp Ben Ball Horsham Warrnambool OTB need feeder tracks or breeder incentives ...These guys need a Straight Track and they need to make sure they have distance boxers installed ...Double the prize money for these local dogs at there local tracks over 650.


Hayden Gilders
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 757
Dogs 26 / Races 0

19 Nov 2019 21:48


 (1)
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Geoff doesnít your dog hold the 400 track record at Warrnambool and didnít you have a maiden at Ballarat fairly recently that broke 22 secs.? And why is it that fields cannot be filled in distance races?



Michael Peter Martin
New Zealand
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Posts 67
Dogs 0 / Races 0

19 Nov 2019 22:34


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All of this is so reminiscent of recent history in NZ it's almost like dogday afternoon.

We have an industry here dating from the 1800's albeit only really mentionable for the last 50 years or so.
However it quickly gained momentum in the late 70's and before long was growing faster than the chariots or thoroughbreds. By the 80's we had quickly established a strong local breed with some very stout bloodlines particularly from some Irish imported sires previously. At this stage we had very few sprint races and we had improved the average greyhound with good Australian sires. We were to send the odd one to race in Aus that was capable of competing at the highest level and the number of those has slowly increased.
However with traffic between NZ and Aus increased we found that the majority of imports coming here were short course dogs. At this stage in NZ we were producing a more dour breed where distance racing was not only popular but common. As you can imagine a get out and go short course Australian dog was generally far too good for our lot and they were an instant hit. A lot of NZ trainer and or owners found a way to instant success and dollars, a lot of Australian breeders had a viable avenue for the unwanted.
Quickly the NZ scene changed with people breeding form a lot of the "stars" hat had been imported. The flow of short course dogs being imported continued to rise and it was not long until The Palmerston North club set a new standard by running a full card of just sprint races (at that stage under 300m).

Some of the stalwarts of the industry realized the path we were on and started to protest but it went unheeded, even to the extent that some of the shorter races in NZ were afforded group one status!!!!

People put up the same arguments I read in above post's and a lot of them were put into practice. There was a subsidy put on all NZ races where a maiden would get an extra $900 if it got it's first win over further than 400m. This was altered to getting $900 when it won it's first race over 400m+. We also increased the amount of money for it's first middle distance win(over 400m) and staying races (over 600m)increasing with the distance run regardless if it had won a sprint maiden. One club in particular carded a feature staying race on it's weekly card every week for several years (probably because a committee member raced mainly stayers.

Has it made any difference? very little , the club that carded the weekly distance races were lucky to get a field more than a handful of times a year and they were usually over 600m for middle class dogs that were not competitive over where they had got in the ranking and were looking for a couple of easy dollars.

Someone said to me here that one of the worst things that can happen to you when you breed a litter is that there is a good stayer amongst them because there will be no races for it.

One of our major tracks here in the South Island manages better but mainly because they have managed to import good staying dogs from Aus which seems to fly in the face of the crisis you have.

From an outside viewpoint I would say that one of the problems (maybe not the right term ) you have is that previously sprint dogs in Aus were mainly unwanted and often found a new career path. Those dogs, now that all are accounted for, have to be given a chance so if they were not able to come to NZ the only other option is to race them. Couple that with the lack of breeding and subsequent racing dogs available they were needed to fill the fields.
The imports coming to NZ now are less just sprinters but often non chasing middle distance dogs, and here may lay part of your problem. Why the huge increase of nonnies in Aus? is it because as Ryan says the breeding is not thought through enough or is it as someone else commented, it's no wonder if all they have to chase is a stuffed toy! FFS for someone still lamenting they are no longer able to use a more dire method beggars belief. What that says to me is that Aus trainers had become so dependent on that forbidden extra they have not been able to adjust to the real world. Surely you are better at husbandry than that.

My grandfather came here from Melbourne and was a musterer who was always known for his champion breed of dogs. He would shake his head at this




Simon Moore
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2253
Dogs 32 / Races 393

19 Nov 2019 22:50


 (1)
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Hayden Gilders wrote:

Geoff doesnít your dog hold the 400 track record at Warrnambool and didnít you have a maiden at Ballarat fairly recently that broke 22 secs.? And why is it that fields cannot be filled in distance races?


so what?

there is a place for all dogs.

do u suppose geoff doesn't race his dogs if they can't run 500m?


Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2643
Dogs 6 / Races 0

19 Nov 2019 22:53


 (1)
 (0)


Good points, even from Devils Advocate, but he should stay away from the Ďdevilí.

Great read of your post, MPM.

Cheers,

P.S. Geoff can only train and place his dogs with their limitations. He canít fit all stayers in his kennels.


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1638
Dogs 0 / Races 0

19 Nov 2019 23:09


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We are tending to get carts before horses here, although I think Geoff is on the right track. However, to judge by what is happening today might be a false approach. Todayís greyhound product has grown up like Topsy as something new is added to last yearís effort, and then another and another. We are forgetting how racing reached its peak in the 1990s or thereabouts.

Properly, greyhound racing should have variety, safe running and be interesting to both todayís punters and future owners.

Short races do not do that. Corner starts do not do that. Yet the proportions of both are steadily increasing as we speak. Genuine customers have never liked them, so we are now losing their patronage. Short trips are less predictable so dividends are higher there. The same goes for race falls and interference levels (data is available) and presumably for injuries as well (data is being kept secret).

Half the pups we breed are not flash beginners so it is bad business to make life even harder for them.

We can gossip all we like but nobody can say with authority whether the short trip phenomenon is due to trainersí wishes or breeding shortcomings, or both. We should find out. Either way, it contributes nothing positive to the future of the sport or to the breed. (I make one exception here as straight track racing over 350m or so does serve a few masters. However, I would dump anything of 300m or less).

The quick and easy solution is money. Pay by the metre on an increasing scale. That points in the direction we want to go.

Simultaneously, wipe out all the badly placed boxes so the clubs are not tempted to use them. (Hint: at one-turn tracks it is physically impossible to create trouble-free starts for trips of 400m or less. 400m racing is practicable only on circle tracks providing that builders are flexible enough to knock down fences here and there and give dogs a decent look down the back straight).

Longer term, breeding almost certainly needs attention but I am loathe to comment as it is a complex subject and I donít know enough. I imagine money is a good part of the answer but donít give to ordinary dogs which are just turning up for the petrol money.



Geoff Collins
(Verified User)
Posts 1938
Dogs 241 / Races 30

20 Nov 2019 00:09


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Hayden Gilders wrote:

Geoff doesnít your dog hold the 400 track record at Warrnambool and didnít you have a maiden at Ballarat fairly recently that broke 22 secs.? And why is it that fields cannot be filled in distance races?

Hayden Ö yes but itís not about what works for me itís about whatís right for the industry Ö and Iím not suggesting we close 400m racing down Ö I am suggesting we halt the demise of distance racing



Sheldon Hamilton
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 5
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Nov 2019 01:58


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Hi guys first time poster.

Have read many different points of views and theories why distance racing is not progressing. All I can say at the moment distance racing in Victoria has these restrictions on distance racing. Vic breed. 0-4 wins. 0-6 wins. Less than $25k prize money won. No city wins.

If you have purchased a dog bred interstate has won 7 races and want to race from 300m to 500m you can find as many as 30 races for entry each week. Compare that to 650m plus and if your lucky have 2 opportunities to race..

I see a switch that needs to be flicked and things could change very quickly.

Ever business has a product or service that has a better profit margin hence they promote and push that product more so. Ours is distance racing.




Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17879
Dogs 14306 / Races 1817

20 Nov 2019 02:04


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Sandro Bechini wrote:

The only thing left to tweak to change and force trainers to race their dogs over more distances is grading - the progression in the shorter distances to top grade should be shortened so that when these dogs win a few races they hit top grade and don't drop back fast

The aim is to force trainers to re-assess their distance options with the dog.

With a shortened progression to top grade in the up to 449m range and making the switch to the 450-650m band starting in 5th grade again and making the 450-650 band flatter with longer progression to top grade might entice trainers to make the switch to train their their dogs for the higher distances.

No need to change the 651m+ band at the moment as there aren't enough dogs progessing through these bands anyway.

Sheldon, see a previous post


Michael Geraghty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3931
Dogs 14 / Races 15

20 Nov 2019 02:06


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Michael Peter Martin wrote:

All of this is so reminiscent of recent history in NZ it's almost like dogday afternoon.

We have an industry here dating from the 1800's albeit only really mentionable for the last 50 years or so.
However it quickly gained momentum in the late 70's and before long was growing faster than the chariots or thoroughbreds. By the 80's we had quickly established a strong local breed with some very stout bloodlines particularly from some Irish imported sires previously. At this stage we had very few sprint races and we had improved the average greyhound with good Australian sires. We were to send the odd one to race in Aus that was capable of competing at the highest level and the number of those has slowly increased.
However with traffic between NZ and Aus increased we found that the majority of imports coming here were short course dogs. At this stage in NZ we were producing a more dour breed where distance racing was not only popular but common. As you can imagine a get out and go short course Australian dog was generally far too good for our lot and they were an instant hit. A lot of NZ trainer and or owners found a way to instant success and dollars, a lot of Australian breeders had a viable avenue for the unwanted.
Quickly the NZ scene changed with people breeding form a lot of the "stars" hat had been imported. The flow of short course dogs being imported continued to rise and it was not long until The Palmerston North club set a new standard by running a full card of just sprint races (at that stage under 300m).

Some of the stalwarts of the industry realized the path we were on and started to protest but it went unheeded, even to the extent that some of the shorter races in NZ were afforded group one status!!!!

People put up the same arguments I read in above post's and a lot of them were put into practice. There was a subsidy put on all NZ races where a maiden would get an extra $900 if it got it's first win over further than 400m. This was altered to getting $900 when it won it's first race over 400m+. We also increased the amount of money for it's first middle distance win(over 400m) and staying races (over 600m)increasing with the distance run regardless if it had won a sprint maiden. One club in particular carded a feature staying race on it's weekly card every week for several years (probably because a committee member raced mainly stayers.

Has it made any difference? very little , the club that carded the weekly distance races were lucky to get a field more than a handful of times a year and they were usually over 600m for middle class dogs that were not competitive over where they had got in the ranking and were looking for a couple of easy dollars.

Someone said to me here that one of the worst things that can happen to you when you breed a litter is that there is a good stayer amongst them because there will be no races for it.

One of our major tracks here in the South Island manages better but mainly because they have managed to import good staying dogs from Aus which seems to fly in the face of the crisis you have.

From an outside viewpoint I would say that one of the problems (maybe not the right term ) you have is that previously sprint dogs in Aus were mainly unwanted and often found a new career path. Those dogs, now that all are accounted for, have to be given a chance so if they were not able to come to NZ the only other option is to race them. Couple that with the lack of breeding and subsequent racing dogs available they were needed to fill the fields.
The imports coming to NZ now are less just sprinters but often non chasing middle distance dogs, and here may lay part of your problem. Why the huge increase of nonnies in Aus? is it because as Ryan says the breeding is not thought through enough or is it as someone else commented, it's no wonder if all they have to chase is a stuffed toy! FFS for someone still lamenting they are no longer able to use a more dire method beggars belief. What that says to me is that Aus trainers had become so dependent on that forbidden extra they have not been able to adjust to the real world. Surely you are better at husbandry than that.

My grandfather came here from Melbourne and was a musterer who was always known for his champion breed of dogs. He would shake his head at this

Some good points there, Michael, but some a bit ordinary.

Not once have I seen anywhere on here the suggestion that a "more dire method" should be allowed...in fact, the opposite.

By your reasoning, the Greyhound should
/can be the only animal in existence to be trained with non-specific food rewards and endure the battles of racing and still keep its keenness and integrity.
Incredible.
I also believe that most Aussie trainers just want the ability to educate their pups all the way through their young life and extend that education to trial tracks and race tracks using the "forbidden" and incredibly cruel practice of using a lifeless piece of sheepskin or SCHMAKO!
God forbid, hey.

Perhaps Michael, you might consider making sure your own backyard is squeaky clean before casting doubt on others?

If the ptb could be bothered attending a few trial nights and visiting a few break-in establishments to witness young dogs failing in integrity at enormous rates, they, as well as your good self, may realise that lifeless, dead, human wearing sheepskins may just be the tonic to ongoing welfare of the dog and industry.(even more so with some stayers)

Tally ho.


Hayden Gilders
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 757
Dogs 26 / Races 0

20 Nov 2019 03:02


 (1)
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Simon fwiw Geoffís kennel is probably the same as most others . He doesnít have dogs that can run further than 500 and even with additional prize money the dogs wonít run any further.




Hayden Gilders
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 757
Dogs 26 / Races 0

20 Nov 2019 03:23


 (0)
 (0)


Sheldon hamilton wrote:

Hi guys first time poster.

Have read many different points of views and theories why distance racing is not progressing. All I can say at the moment distance racing in Victoria has these restrictions on distance racing. Vic breed. 0-4 wins. 0-6 wins. Less than $25k prize money won. No city wins.

If you have purchased a dog bred interstate has won 7 races and want to race from 300m to 500m you can find as many as 30 races for entry each week. Compare that to 650m plus and if your lucky have 2 opportunities to race..

I see a switch that needs to be flicked and things could change very quickly.

Ever business has a product or service that has a better profit margin hence they promote and push that product more so. Ours is distance racing.

the thread was initiated in qld. Could it be that the distance dog demise is Australia wide not just unique to vic. One important factor in every business model is the supply of the product and it doesnít appear to be there





Graham Moscow
Australia
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Posts 640
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Nov 2019 03:43


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steven martin wrote:

Is the "520 metre runner", becoming a thing of the past?

Well if you take away city racing on a -
Wed - Wpk
Thu - Albion/Angle/Sandown
Sat - Cann/Wpk/Meadows
the answer is a big fat yes.

Just look at the fields at most TAB tracks. 520m racing is just a handful at best & you never see a FFA. Around 60 to 70% of all events are now raced over 400m or less. It's something NEVER ever seen before. If you take a bo-peek at the country tracks, 520m races are non-existent.

With breeding numbers still registering well below the 3000 litter mark pre-2015, 520m runners will continue to fall by the wayside imo.

And looking at breeding figures this year, we'll only see around 1700 litters whelped at an estimate, so don't expect any miracles.

Without quantity, quality will always be compromised regarding 520m racing, which has always been the holy grail of greyhound racing...and 600m & 700m is now poor at best.

So where to now because strength is disappearing and disappearing FAST?

You can't blame breeders as Dyna Double One, Barcia & Fernando Bale who are the favours on the month are presently averaging between them 27% of all litters whelped since the start of 2016. That's 1 in every 4 litters whelped.

The TOP 20 sires USED since 2016 have averaged 64.5% of all whelpings. That's every 3 litters whelped, 2 are by top 20 sires -
BARCIA BALE, FERNANDO BALE, FABREGAS, DYNA DOUBLE ONE, MY BRO FABIO, KINLOCH BRAE, MAGIC SPRITE, BANJO BOY, COSMIC RUMBLE, EL GRAND SENOR, ASTON DEE BEE, SPRING GUN, COLLISION, WORM BURNER, MEPUNGA BLAZER, ALLEN DEED, DYNA VILLA, SH AVATAR, BLACK MAGIC OPAL & OAKS ROAD.

Regarding "Brood-Bitches"....In recent times mostly quality bitches have been used for whelpings compared to yesteryear, due to the downturn in breeding. How do I know this?.....STATS. Quality brood-bitches that would have been bred with, weren't by their orignal owners....But were snapped up by those eager to grab a quality bargain bitch, forcing average bitches into early motherly retirement. But even with this outcome, still 520m racing falls.

So will we ever see 520m racing dominate again? What are the answers?

Anybody?


NEVER MIND THE QUALITY FEEL THE WIDTH
With breeding numbers lower, bloodlines getting finer and a continuous increase in short course races we wonít see any increase in 500 plus races.
Future Viability 15mins between races is inevitable due to $ more races per meetings



Sheldon Hamilton
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 5
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Nov 2019 03:54


 (1)
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Sandro your statement "no change is needed for 650 plus at the moment as there is not enough dogs progressing anyway".

Sandro there is enough evidence here in Victoria to suggest your statement needs to be challenged and a mindset that we must try to upgrade.. Not having a go far from it Sandro..

Just looked at two race meets last week and 23 dogs ran around 600m at meadows on Wednesday and 13 ran around 545 in tier 3 Ballarat Monday. Total of 39.

So I guess your asking why then do they not enter 650plus races. Short answer none are confidant there will even be a race and cannot afford to risk continuity of racing and the race standard could be too significant to risk running out the back and then been questioned. Also other restrictions that eliminates these dogs from entering the next upcoming applicable distance race...

Tweak a couple of things, direct market to trainers of these 39 dogs, give confidence of grading and guaranteed scheduled race each week and it may be a slow burn but it's a start.





Ricki Hassall
Australia
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Posts 135
Dogs 15 / Races 1

20 Nov 2019 04:34


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I put it down to the choice of sires being used these days.

Back in the 80's there was loads of top stayers.

The top sires then were Temlee & Waverley Supreme.

Waverley Supreme was a stayer.

Prior to being retired.......connections were about to race Temlee over 700m.

We simply don't use stayers as sires these days as the pups aren't commercial.



Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7376
Dogs 179 / Races 66

20 Nov 2019 05:33


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Graham Moscow wrote:

With breeding numbers lower, bloodlines getting finer and a continuous increase in short course races we wonít see any increase in 500 plus races.

Exactly Graham. I've been waiting for someone to HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.

Nothing is gonna change SOON with the demise of the breeding industry.

It's that simple.

Breeding 500m runners to 700m runners doesn't work....but I'm happy to be proven wrong. For example if anyone can tell me 100 of these litters that have produced plenty of city winners in the last 20 years, please name them. Over 65,000 litters have been registered over that period so get to work.

Sandro Bechini wrote:

Steve

The way things are going 520m dogs will be the freaks of the breed


The funny thing is Sandro, I believe that comment would have been appropiate 20, 30 even 40 years ago too, if we weren't breeding 18,000 to 30,000 pups a year.

The only thing that has changed from then to now is the puppy pool has shrunk.

For those of us that have been around to witness the sport for 40 plus years and had a hands-on approach regardinng breeding will relise that EVERY litter will produce 300/400 runners, NO MATTER who you put your bitch to. It's just unfortunately how it works.

So what we're seeing now is less litters bred, TAB contracts to fill and the only dogs to make up the short-fall of 500, 600 & 700m runners (due to percentages & mother-nature) are to dogs that breeders would give away 10 years ago to the country because they weren't TAB-CLASS.

Nothing will change if breeding stays stagnate as such, except for one thing imo. One State will become nominate and control ALL of the 500/600/700 racedogs because if you want to race these dogs over these distances CONSISTLY...I repeat CONSISTLY (week in week out), that's where you'll have to send them.....whether you like it or not.

And as I've been saying for over a decade now, Victoria is on the move.


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17879
Dogs 14306 / Races 1817

20 Nov 2019 05:57


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Ricki Hassall wrote:

I put it down to the choice of sires being used these days.

Back in the 80's there was loads of top stayers.

The top sires then were Temlee & Waverley Supreme.

Waverley Supreme was a stayer.

Prior to being retired.......connections were about to race Temlee over 700m.

We simply don't use stayers as sires these days as the pups aren't commercial.

I agree with you Ricki

European Thoroughbred breeders breed superior stayers because they not only use Staying damlines but also Staying sires

Greyhound breeders are mainly focussed on the first 300m out of the boxes

If anyone was serious about breeding a stronger dog then Dyna Chancer would be a great prospect

I don't think I have seen a more consistent stayer over a long period of time as this bloke

CLICK HERE



Steven Martin
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 7376
Dogs 179 / Races 66

20 Nov 2019 06:01


 (0)
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:

You've bred a top quality 500m to 600m+ conveyance in Gelantipy Gold, I'm sure you didn't just look at a statistic when you put that mating together, solid linebreeding principles were involved.


And sure Ryan...That's a prime example of what I talked about above. A speedy 400m bitch (a freak mind you) over a track record holding 500m sire. Who would have thought that mating would have produce at dog that could break 42 seconds a Albion Pk on multiple occasions.....Mother nature maybe but not me.

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