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520m RACING. A thing of the past or not?page  1 2 3 4 5 


Ryan Vanderwert
Australia
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Posts 4288
Dogs 4 / Races 0

20 Nov 2019 06:57


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steven martin wrote:

….Who would have thought that mating would have produce at dog that could break 42 seconds a Albion Pk on multiple occasions.....Mother nature maybe but not me.

I wld never underestimate how that primary linebreeding intensity in x to Lemon Soda thru different individuals, influenced that litter Steven. Stands out even more with Mildean being predominantly an outcross. I think from memory Lemon Soda's influence in x on litters was running at 55% as far as producing city grade performers was concerned. I know you knew that :)

imo you give yourself a chance of producing a decent city grade conveyance if you introduce solid 500m linebreeding principles through different individuals, such as Lemon Soda in the x path in your case, into the pedigree.


Hayden Gilders
Australia
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Posts 757
Dogs 26 / Races 0

20 Nov 2019 10:47


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Bruce Teague wrote:

We are tending to get carts before horses here, although I think Geoff is on the right track. However, to judge by what is happening today might be a false approach. Today’s greyhound product has grown up like Topsy as something new is added to last year’s effort, and then another and another. We are forgetting how racing reached its peak in the 1990s or thereabouts.

Properly, greyhound racing should have variety, safe running and be interesting to both today’s punters and future owners.

Short races do not do that. Corner starts do not do that. Yet the proportions of both are steadily increasing as we speak. Genuine customers have never liked them, so we are now losing their patronage. Short trips are less predictable so dividends are higher there. The same goes for race falls and interference levels (data is available) and presumably for injuries as well (data is being kept secret).

Half the pups we breed are not flash beginners so it is bad business to make life even harder for them.

We can gossip all we like but nobody can say with authority whether the short trip phenomenon is due to trainers’ wishes or breeding shortcomings, or both. We should find out. Either way, it contributes nothing positive to the future of the sport or to the breed. (I make one exception here as straight track racing over 350m or so does serve a few masters. However, I would dump anything of 300m or less).

The quick and easy solution is money. Pay by the metre on an increasing scale. That points in the direction we want to go.

Simultaneously, wipe out all the badly placed boxes so the clubs are not tempted to use them. (Hint: at one-turn tracks it is physically impossible to create trouble-free starts for trips of 400m or less. 400m racing is practicable only on circle tracks providing that builders are flexible enough to knock down fences here and there and give dogs a decent look down the back straight).

Longer term, breeding almost certainly needs attention but I am loathe to comment as it is a complex subject and I don’t know enough. I imagine money is a good part of the answer but don’t give to ordinary dogs which are just turning up for the petrol money.

Bruce the benefit of your experience please example grv 650 meters turns 30k what % goes to grv. Is this % constant. Are there figures ie time of day/ turnover figures? Sky 1 v sky 2 figures. Specific tracks etc. I note that bold grease has attracted 29 dogs only what does that tell you. Thanks in advance



Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 1641
Dogs 0 / Races 0

20 Nov 2019 23:04


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Hayden,

"Bruce the benefit of your experience please example grv 650 meters turns 30k what % goes to grv. Is this % constant. Are there figures ie time of day/ turnover figures? Sky 1 v sky 2 figures. Specific tracks etc. I note that bold grease has attracted 29 dogs only what does that tell you. Thanks in advance"

I make a practice of always responding to correspondence but this time it would help if you re-wrote your queries in English with punctuation.

Otherwise (a) I am sure the GRV database could help and (b) you may have missed the memo advising that I have shut down my database. However, Vic TAB deductions vary from 14.5% to 25.0%, part of which goes to GRV.

Meantime, two points; gauging performance by race to race turnover is a lost cause due to the mug content and (b) good examples of poorly located boxes are Ballarat 390m, 545m and 660m. The worst of those would be the 660m (as at Warrnambool, Bendigo, Shepparton).

29 nominations for the Bold Trease tell me nothing much. But it would be an interesting side note to check which of them run faster or slower in the final than in the heat 7 days earlier. (The average is two thirds slower). On current form, none of them is capable of flash times anyway.



Hayden Gilders
Australia
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Posts 757
Dogs 26 / Races 0

20 Nov 2019 23:40


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sorry bruce - I will private message you if that's ok


Hayden Gilders
Australia
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Posts 757
Dogs 26 / Races 0

21 Nov 2019 11:01


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Kevin Wright wrote:

Geoff Collins wrote:

At Warrnambool recently .. a 5 dog 650m race turned over $36k .. a 6 dog 650m race held over 29k and the 390m races held around $21k .. serious punters don’t bet on 400m races … most punters I know don’t even watch them … I don’t

Distance racing is our industry’s BEST earner

Yet there are no distance boxes at Horsham .. none at Murray Bridge … Traralgon’s longest distance will be 500m and I understand that there will be none at Goulbourn

We are not supporting the product that turns over the most money … that is ridiculous !!!

There are less injuries with distance racing .. the anti-racing groups are logging every injury that occurs on every track and using them as a further reason racing should close
Distance racing is the industry’s SAFEST product

It is our best earner and our safest product .. make it viable and PROMOTE IT !!


Nice factual post Geoff ...Distance racing by far is the safest racing there is ...
We do need to promote the Country area's a lot more maybe more Country to city heat finals would work .

Shepp Ben Ball Horsham Warrnambool OTB need feeder tracks or breeder incentives ...These guys need a Straight Track and they need to make sure they have distance boxers installed ...Double the prize money for these local dogs at there local tracks over 650.

hi Geoff could you substantiate the details of these races ie dates races and winners of these races please



Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 1641
Dogs 0 / Races 0

21 Nov 2019 23:35


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"At Warrnambool recently .. a 5 dog 650m race turned over $36k .. a 6 dog 650m race held over 29k and the 390m races held around $21k .. serious punters don’t bet on 400m races … most punters I know don’t even watch them … Distance racing is our industry’s BEST earner"

Geoff,

After a Herculean effort I can support your claim about betting turnover at Warrnambool - sort of.

Using Vic figures only, the Nov 7 meeting included one 650m race which attracted $14k for Win and about $47k all up. A single 390m race (out of 5) attracted $16k and $58k resp. Other races were all fairly normal - ie $6k or $7k for the Win.

The big 390m take was in Race 1 for Maidens so you can draw your own conclusions about that. The 650m race was nothing special.

The most likely answer is that a small group of blokes targeted these two races only and, in effect, ran a book against themselves. That is not uncommon for pros. I am not sure about their final profits because the winners paid only $2.70 and $2.40 resp. Of course, what happened with the corporates is unknown.

Whatever their reasons I would confidently say the pattern has nothing to do with the distances of the races - only that the conditions favoured what these guys wanted to bet on. They might as well have been racing frogs.

Incidentally, the above races had 7 and 8 starters resp so you may be thinking of another time. However, the same principles apply.

Nevertheless, my guess is that decent customers (not many left) would always prefer longer races. They certainly did once upon a time. And even mugs like to get a good run for their money.

(Hayden - please note).





Kevin Wright
Australia
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Posts 5209
Dogs 1 / Races 1

22 Nov 2019 00:05


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Bruce Teague wrote:

"At Warrnambool recently .. a 5 dog 650m race turned over $36k .. a 6 dog 650m race held over 29k and the 390m races held around $21k .. serious punters don’t bet on 400m races … most punters I know don’t even watch them … Distance racing is our industry’s BEST earner"

Geoff,

After a Herculean effort I can support your claim about betting turnover at Warrnambool - sort of.

Using Vic figures only, the Nov 7 meeting included one 650m race which attracted $14k for Win and about $47k all up. A single 390m race (out of 5) attracted $16k and $58k resp. Other races were all fairly normal - ie $6k or $7k for the Win.

The big 390m take was in Race 1 for Maidens so you can draw your own conclusions about that. The 650m race was nothing special.

The most likely answer is that a small group of blokes targeted these two races only and, in effect, ran a book against themselves. That is not uncommon for pros. I am not sure about their final profits because the winners paid only $2.70 and $2.40 resp. Of course, what happened with the corporates is unknown.

Whatever their reasons I would confidently say the pattern has nothing to do with the distances of the races - only that the conditions favoured what these guys wanted to bet on. They might as well have been racing frogs.

Incidentally, the above races had 7 and 8 starters resp so you may be thinking of another time. However, the same principles apply.

Nevertheless, my guess is that decent customers (not many left) would always prefer longer races. They certainly did once upon a time. And even mugs like to get a good run for their money.

(Hayden - please note).


Bruce Bruce Bucey .
Quote.
The most likely answer is that a small group of blokes targeted these two races only and, in effect, ran a book against themselves. That is not uncommon for pros. I am not sure about their final profits because the winners paid only $2.70 and $2.40 resp. Of course, what happened with the corporates is unknown.

Whatever their reasons I would confidently say the pattern has nothing to do with the distances of the races - only that the conditions favoured what these guys wanted to bet on. They might as well have been racing frogs.

What planet are you on now you are making up stories to back your Diatribe ....For god sake stop making up stupid scenarios and stick to the facts ...

You are incredible Bruce ...

Did you know these Guys Bruce if not then why are you making up a story based on events you think would've happened


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 1641
Dogs 0 / Races 0

22 Nov 2019 06:17


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Kevin,

The dictionary definition of "diatribe" is ... "a bitter and violent denunciation, attack or criticism". That does not apply here

So could you select another abusive word for your future commentary?

Equally, I said "the most likely answer ...". In English, that means other explanations are possible but less likely. While you are at it, you might tidy up your punctuation as it makes the copy harder to read.

Lastly, I gather you are not too familiar with punting practices these days. That being so, it would be better not to comment at all.



Julian Gauld
Australia
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Posts 110
Dogs 0 / Races 0

22 Nov 2019 09:32


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Bruce Teague wrote:

To illustrate the state of the art, consider last night�s distance race at Wenty where five runners (six drawn with one scratching) wandered around the track in 43.06 � some 24 lengths worse than the record. There was no significant interference, no falls, but this was how the code managed to chuck away $7,900 in prize money at what used to be the biggest betting venue in the country.

Some venue! That race pulled in only $5,476 on the Win tote, easily the worst of the night. Overall, the tote managed an average of just over $8,000, of which you would see only half by the time you had to place a bet. The corporates collectively (a dozen of them?) would have doubled that figure if you were prepared to risk your bet being rejected or the price being lousier than the tote.


Bruce, I know from your past posts that you are not a Betfair man, but looking at that Wenty meeting, the average hold on Betfair for each of the races was a touch over $21,500 and the staying race that you referred to held $20,945.And...that's at much lower market percentages than the tote or corporates, typically 100-103% before commission.A much better chance of getting set and at a better price!



Steven Martin
Australia
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Posts 7377
Dogs 179 / Races 66

22 Nov 2019 10:17


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Dead-set. This is a fcuk1ng joke.
I ask a serious question and the bl00dy thread turns into another BRUCE-A-THON.
Then the usual "Sh1t" follows and the thread goes "Pear-Shaped".
The reason I couldn't be bothered going on FACEBOOK is because of this crap.
Some of you kids need to bite your tongue and offer a sensible observation, that resemble your birth-age.

Fair dinkum...Please read the topic title.



Jamie Quinlivian
Australia
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Posts 7059
Dogs 10 / Races 0

22 Nov 2019 10:37


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Yes Steve, every thread follows the same pattern and there is one common denominator.

Anyway, 520m racing is definitely not a thing of the past.
Tonights racing at Sandown is quality.
I know, I know, you should expect quality for the Melbourne Cup heats but this is the pinnacle of our sport and there will always be top quality 500m dogs.
Track record gone tonight. Freakish.


Hayden Gilders
Australia
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Posts 757
Dogs 26 / Races 0

22 Nov 2019 11:19


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steven martin wrote:

Dead-set. This is a fcuk1ng joke.
I ask a serious question and the bl00dy thread turns into another BRUCE-A-THON.
Then the usual "Sh1t" follows and the thread goes "Pear-Shaped".
The reason I couldn't be bothered going on FACEBOOK is because of this crap.
Some of you kids need to bite your tongue and offer a sensible observation, that resemble your birth-age.

Fair dinkum...Please read the topic title.

hi Steve in this instance I take full responsibility for the direction that this thread has taken. Although I believe that the points are not mutually exclusive. Steve what we have in Victoria is a group of people is vigorously promoting 650 metre racing in Victoria because it provides better returns to the industry. I approached Bruce who probably has more knowledge re betting than any contributor on G.D. His knowledge is worth his weight.
Steve do you accept everything that is said on this site in a general statement when the source should be cited? back to my point that works with your topic. Throwing money at the industry will not change the distance a dog can run. And you can’t argue with that. And here is the indisputable Steve, if you throw money at a race distance that has little appeal then the temptation for some is to push the dogs beyond their capabilities causing damage to the dogs. It’s alright to say that the do gooders monitor injuries but do you want them to say that we kill the dogs by the metre because they don’t have the capacity to complete the task just because the betting turnover is better? Again Steve I apologise and you can have your thread back but it is my doing not Bruce Teague and I thank him for his assistance cheers Hayden





Steven Martin
Australia
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Posts 7377
Dogs 179 / Races 66

22 Nov 2019 21:00


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She's cool Hayden. You point was relative to the question.

It's the continued obvious, deliberate attacks from others that seem to flow from thread to thread that deflate the conversation and destroy the reason why we are all here....Talk about GREYHOUNDS.

And sure & without naming anyone once again, some may wonder & even drimble from time to time, but don't we all.

The general rule should be, if you can't say anything nice then be constuctive....not a bitch.

Gotta get to work but yours & Jamie's points about Victoria are spot on.
Victoria is on the move.


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 1641
Dogs 0 / Races 0

22 Nov 2019 23:50


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Julian,

"Bruce, I know from your past posts that you are not a Betfair man, but looking at that Wenty meeting, the average hold on Betfair for each of the races was a touch over $21,500 and the staying race that you referred to held $20,945.And...that's at much lower market percentages than the tote or corporates, typically 100-103% before commission.A much better chance of getting set and at a better price!"

I have to plead ignorance about the detail of Betfair turnover, mainly because it is too hard to keep up with and Betfair is not a good citizen in this respect (it refuses to give the ARB contributions to the Fact Book, for example). However I am aware that it is quite popular and it does attract a lot of non-Australian betting (although I doubt the investors know much about the dogs they are betting on).

Even so, that is not much different to the position with corporates where it is all rumour, innuendo and rip-offs. To say nothing of lower commission rates.

Back to the Test score.

Whether on betting trends or 500m or 700m racing, we are talking about the need for management information which then should be used to create industry objectives and suitable methods to achieve them.

So far as I am aware, the industry has no strategic objectives. I dismiss so-called strategic plans as they are no more than waffle designed to satisfy government bureaucratic requirements (and no scores are kept anyway).

This is also why everyone falls in a heap when something nasty hits the fan.

It is also why grading decisions or major prize money allocations are ad hoc - ie with little attention to what they might lead to in the long run. As I said, it has all grown up like Topsy.

Suffice to say - if more and better long distance racing is a good thing then all decision-making should be directed to that end. And if the stamina of the breed is in decline then measures should be taken to reverse and improve that trend. Neither is happening.

Note: I am not anti-Betfair, quite the opposite, as I have often written. The problem is that the industry is not flexible enough to fit them I into the system effectively. That's a management challenge that has not really been met.



Ray Webster
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Posts 326
Dogs 72 / Races 27

24 Nov 2019 07:16


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I consider one of the major reasons for the decline in trainers not patronising 500m+ racing is the lack of suitable opportunity to condition a dog to race over the longer distance.

Richmond were trialling on a Sunday morning however, this didn't happen today. Why????

Several trainers travelled great distances and no trials.

Not good Jan!!!


Gavin William Lowe
Australia
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Posts 6
Dogs 3 / Races 0

29 Nov 2019 20:48


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The reason for Short Racing taking over is Purely Economic return.
Now that prize money ln NSW is the same no matter 500m or 2oom
Why would you race over 500, only at the most 3 times a fortnight if you're lucky. Total income $4500.00 max.
Race twice a week with short courser. Total income $6000.00 per fortnight.
Short courser no trialing just feed and nominate. Industry approved kennel size sufficient room to exercise less work.
New people coming into industry weighing up economics head to short course racing to make it viable.



Michael Peter Martin
New Zealand
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Posts 68
Dogs 0 / Races 0

29 Nov 2019 22:22


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Gavin William Lowe wrote:

The reason for Short Racing taking over is Purely Economic return.
Now that prize money ln NSW is the same no matter 500m or 2oom
Why would you race over 500, only at the most 3 times a fortnight if you're lucky. Total income $4500.00 max.
Race twice a week with short courser. Total income $6000.00 per fortnight.
Short courser no trialing just feed and nominate. Industry approved kennel size sufficient room to exercise less work.
New people coming into industry weighing up economics head to short course racing to make it viable.

And in a nutshell there you have your answer uncle Steve


Bruce Teague
Australia
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Posts 1641
Dogs 0 / Races 0

30 Nov 2019 03:39


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Gavin William Lowe wrote:

The reason for Short Racing taking over is Purely Economic return.
Now that prize money ln NSW is the same no matter 500m or 2oom
Why would you race over 500, only at the most 3 times a fortnight if you're lucky. Total income $4500.00 max.
Race twice a week with short courser. Total income $6000.00 per fortnight.
Short courser no trialing just feed and nominate. Industry approved kennel size sufficient room to exercise less work.
New people coming into industry weighing up economics head to short course racing to make it viable.

Gavin,

I see where you are coming from and there is an element of truth in your economics - but it is only a part story.

First, there is some differentiation by distance in week to week prize money by distance (not enough perhaps).

Second, a short course preference works only for good beginners who make up perhaps less than half the total.

Third, you are assuming a win on every occasion but that is less likely in short trips where interference is higher.

Fourth, you have to discount your profit projections because of the unusually high prizes for many 500s, and (less so) for any potential breeding barn income. Few will get there but they do affect the mathematics.

But, certainly, if the industry wants more stamina then it must start pushing relatively more cash into 500m and further.



Gavin William Lowe
Australia
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Posts 6
Dogs 3 / Races 0

30 Nov 2019 07:02


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My statement was a. generalized overview of earnings potential of short course racing verses 500m races. On a level of the average joe blow who wishes to race and work. There are few cases of different levels but generally all is the same. I also wasn't taking in preferences,box manners, group or classic prize money on offer as they are irrelevant to this argument.
The other part of the of the argument is that of human nature.
It is one of the things that the administrators don't consider.
That is human nature trends to show that trainers / owners will gravitate to the highest potential returns. As proven when northern rivers trainers crossed the qld border in droves for better returns.
Also low grade dogs nominated for group races. Potential return great
Reality not so wonderful, but optimistic human nature.
Great to see your last sentence finally got to the message in my post and you are correct the prize monies need to be addressed before 500m racing is only kept alive by group and classic grade money.



Steven Martin
Australia
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Posts 7377
Dogs 179 / Races 66

30 Nov 2019 07:59


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Michael Peter Martin wrote:

Gavin William Lowe wrote:

The reason for Short Racing taking over is Purely Economic return.
Now that prize money ln NSW is the same no matter 500m or 2oom
Why would you race over 500, only at the most 3 times a fortnight if you're lucky. Total income $4500.00 max.
Race twice a week with short courser. Total income $6000.00 per fortnight.
Short courser no trialing just feed and nominate. Industry approved kennel size sufficient room to exercise less work.
New people coming into industry weighing up economics head to short course racing to make it viable.

And in a nutshell there you have your answer uncle Steve


Do either of you, Micheal or Gav (or anyone else for that matter) think for one minute that if breeding was still around 3000 PLUS litters per year in Australia not 1500 1600 & 1700 as it's been the last 3 years, that we'd be talking about this subject today ????

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