The main problem you have is that the bookmakers run the sport there and give sweet F@#k all back to the participants as prizemoney

Honestly 30 pounds for first prizemoney. It would barely cover the cost of food, vitamins and vet fees for the dog

What incentive is there for an owner to invest in the sport to get any sort of return except on the punt, where they need to risk more money.

The overall risk is integrity and welfare.

Because the bookmakers run the show they need as many dogs to race as possible to fill fields thus putting pressure on animals to race when they shouldn't and for illegal practices to flourish.

End game is that the dog suffers from the lack of integrity and then you are landed with a welfare issue due to the lack of funding.

The tracks I saw are dilapated i.e. Wimbldon and Walthamstow now gone. Bellevue also now gone, Sheffield and Newcastle. The only one that I went that looks any good is Towcester.

Its high time your Government was lobbied to enact legislation that gave your Board the ability to get a turnover tax from the bookmakers to assist in stewarding and welfare programs and give the Board the power to set minimum adequate prizemoney levels for all bookmaker run tracks.

If it doesn't happen the public will close your sport through protests to the Government

Need to act now guys...

England and Ireland have both had structural reforms but it seems that nothing much really happened. Broadly, the same old system continued even though the world around has changed radically. Essentially, this means a short term vision predominates, change is a nasty word, managers do not look outside the square and so other influences become dominant by default. Mind you, the same syndrome applies in USA and Australia as well.

Welfare hassles have been huge in the UK, USA and Australia, even though they are pushed only by minority groups. Largely, these have been cleaned up but the smell remains, leaving the industry with a big job to update the populace at large.

Numbers at the track are not the real issue, although it would be nice to get some back. Prize money is a factor - in UK it is appalling for both dogs and horses - but it is not the key.

The big issue is whether the public at large FEEL they want to get involved - whether to own, train, bet or whatever. Is it worthwhile putting greyhound racing on their list of recreational options? What are the factors that influence that decision? Are they sufficiently well informed?

Obviously, worldwide experience tells us that major reforms are vital to turn around the battleship (a dinghy at the moment). Wipe the lot and start again with a clean slate. Remove bureaucrats and put managers in charge. Go out to meet the people; don't expect them to come to us.

A throwaway line for what it is worth. I think the time is long overdue to accept that greyhound racing cannot stand on its own feet in the modern environment. It need to partner with two or three other activities to sustain the industry and then develop and progress. This is the era of shopping malls aided by internet facilities and home delivery.

Note: In a post WW2 England, greyhound racing was hard on the heels of soccer in the entertainment stakes. What changed that?

The betting shops did have a major impact on the crowds as did the race channel in Australia. It is how technology and the world has developed and we cannot go back. The English and Irish grass roots greyhound owners, trainers and breeders are very passionate about their sport the fact that they turn out in all sorts of weather for very little money compared to Australia shows us this.

How to improve the sport is complicated especially in Ireland and I know various groups are doing what they can and all at Greyhound-Data wish them the best of luck.

How much comes back on the Aus dollar bet. Is there a set %.

The sooner that happens Brian, the better your industry will become

Something over $3b is bet on greyhounds annually but the data is suspect as it omits Betfair, illegal offshore firms, while much of the online bookies' turnover is foreign sourced.

The tote hands back 5% of turnover to all codes. The online bookies pay much less but it is also uncertain as different deals are cut with each of the states. However, they pay a minimum of 1.5%. They do cover half the action and are improving their share for various reasons.

The tote is highly regulated - online bookies are not - bung rules apply.

Generally speaking the Racing Australia Fact Book lists lots of data on betting although it is primarily a thoroughbred site.

Therefore out of $1.6B the industry gets 8 million pounds

That is disgraceful and no wonder its a shambles

As a guide in NSW they get

- approximately 34 million dollars in revenue from the TAB parimutual betting agency

- They get approx $25 million in Royalties from the use of the Race Fields as Intellectual Property

- they get nearly $ 8 million in other government funded tax receipts

From GRNSW 2019 Annual Report

Income
2019 2018
$ $
TAB distributions 34,244,576 35,565,620
Race field information
use fees 25,148,952 24,512,581
Tax receipts 7,939,424 5,149,48

12 Month Data Data 18/19
Combined State
based TAB turnover $678.2m

Combined Corporate
Turnover (incl.
Betfair)
$817.8m

Betting Turnover for 2019 is $1.496 billion , we are getting about 4.5% of the Total Turnover
EXTERNAL LINK
That is only from one state in Australia, does not include Victoria, Qld,SA,WA or TAS or Northern Territory

That would be nearly 72 million pounds for you guys just based on the NSW figures

You would see some major changes occurring to track conditions, prizemoney and welfare standards/programs with that kind of revenue

It would be a major game changer for your industry and would give Ireland a boost as well and could well encourage European countries to get involved with the sport

Yes the Australian model would be ideal but getting it implemented or even getting small things improved seems to be a battle.

In my opinion the only way forwarded is through the political avenues and to achieve this all must be united which seems a long way off.

Tony

Do the politicians control the bookmakers or is it the other way around?

I don't have the exact figure for the Tote here in Ireland but off the top of my head; approx 23-24%. Someone here might have the exact figure. I know that figure is high enough to put me off betting on the Tote bar using it to watch the very odd race.

I'm somewhat circumspect to see how National and International promotion of our Greyhound Tote would attract customers with such a high takeout. Now, maybe that is the going rate Internationally? I just find it a bit high for my liking.

Thanks to all for some very though provoking information.

Heres the PAW interview.

EXTERNAL LINK

Obviously anyone suggesting we copy the Aus system will be told it cant work like that over here and possibly there are valid reasons for such a point of view.

The Aus Totes are regulated to deduct 16% over any one year but the takeout for individual bets varies from 14.5% to 25%. As time passes it usually exceeds the 16% so then it uses the excess to offer bonuses for special races.

The Totes now account for a declining 50% of all betting. In the present era of smartphones the online bookies are progressively increasing market share, particularly as Covid has shut down TAB shops on the High Street. The Tote is now a poor price guide whereas once it was the pacesetter.

This means that online betting will progressively reduce the income per dollar of turnover to codes because their fees are lower then the Tote's. Those online fees are not regulated but negotiated one to one with each state administration. However, the online guys do strongly sponsor many tracks/races/codes (as does the Tote and its SKY subsidiary). But they also make up their own payout and bet acceptance rules which rarely help customers.

Ideally, greyhounds would benefit if there were a national well-managed betting pool into which everyone could dip their toe. Currently, it is a hopeless mishmash with greyhounds at the bottom of the pile (behind the gallops and the fast-growing Sports). Most Tote pools are therefore unbettable nonsense.

If I may comment on an earlier claim here that the Aus system is terrific - no, it is rubbish. It may be fine for the big-turnover gallops but not for greyhounds.

Simply, one half of betting is like the Wild West, the other half is too small to use effectively. The betting houses now control racing, all the way down to whether you get coverage or get your bet accepted and what time the race jumps.

PS: TABCORP (Tote) shareholders are now getting very stroppy as wagering profitability keeps dropping and its market price is easing. Online firms are in and out weekly, together with mergers and buyouts.

As a private enterprise person, it pains me to say it but nationalisation is the only way forward.

Your summary is correct and your solution is inept.

Disclosure - I am a TAH shareholder.

Nationalisation of any tote scheme only delays the inevitable in that the public/ the consumer no longer has much interest in it.

Fixed odds was the death knell for any concept of National pooling of betting and subsequent payout. It exists merely as a historical curosity thats time has well and truly passed.

On that note we're only talking the win/bet markets. The same race multi bet now exceeds the traditional trifecta/First 4 betting pools. It is a natural progression for any company that wishes to maintain relevance and easier to predict win/loss ratios and profit ratios for the bookermakers. It is a vastly more consistent and reliable product than a variable tote pool.

Put yourself in the position of a bookmaker rather than a punter and its evident that Fixed Odds markets and enhanced betting like same race multi are the way of the future.

There have been methods like "Top tote / Best of Everything" to prolong the antiquated concept of betting pools. Does it exist in sports betting in general like the AFL/NFL/A-League? No it doesn't because it is a facet of the past and it is time to move on.

National totalisers will not save the concept, it is destined to be a relic of the past so enjoy it top totes/exotics etc while it lasts...

Melbourne Cup thouroughbreds and the horsies are the only reason it survives to this day and frankly I am not amazed just dazed by it lingering in 2020

Around a quarter of the population like a gamble in variable frequencies. That was what justified the creation of the Tote in the 1920s (only oncourse at the start, in shops fronts from 1963). So the Tote grew and grew with an ever-increasing product range. It overwhelmed the SP bookies on the street corner or on the phone (as intended), thereby raising tax income. It further expanded via outlets in social clubs and the like (which were also rising in popularity for different reasons).

Together with SKY, that eliminated much of the oncourse bookmaking group which was always hampered by restrictive rules and charges because state governments favoured the Tote when they flogged off the rights. So the bookies decamped to the NT and started up using their own unsupervised bung rules and selling online only (which is cheap to do). Shifty come-on deals became the norm. They did well as customers became accustomed to digital contact, which itself got better and easier.

For the most part, those customers had little idea of the niceties of punting. Those with better knowledge started realising that you cant afford to work in an environment where the house takes up to 30% before you start, or when the pool is so small as to eliminate the Tote as a meaningful option (quite aside from its 16% average deduction). So they went elsewhere, too. Every greyhound betting activity is now a loser, one way or another.

Put another way, how would you like to pay 16% to 30% interest on your house mortgage as occurred when Whitlam was in charge?

Sports betting is doing well because of social attachments and the one-to-one concept. Its hard to cook the books in such a system.

The gallops will continue but not grow because of the huge volumes involved. The trots are gone already and greyhounds will follow them out the back door, relatively speaking. Costs are rising and future income is dubious for the above-mentioned reasons, to say nothing about a declining dog population and worsening field quality.

Your top totes have or will become meaningless while the exotics are a huge rip-off, especially since Tabcorp extended Mysteries to the First Four category. Do you know that a few years ago the then-NSW CEO Hogan published a comparison between charging the corporates a percentage of betting surpluses versus a percentage of turnover. His figures showed the surplus option won hands down, in sharp contrast to what was happening in all the big gallops pools. This tells you that either the corporates were brilliant at their job or the dog punters were terrible at theirs ie big losers.

Like Menzies v Chifley, I dont like nationalising anything but what other choice is there than to create a single big pool? That would keep the corporates honest, TAH would return you bigger dividends and customers would know what they are buying. And a National Betting Commission would watch over any discount deals done with big punters.