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NSW grading

David Mennie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 515
Dogs 1 / Races 1

28 Sep 2020 07:58


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I have for a while now been concerned about the grading system in nsw since it was changed .

I dont profess to understand it that well ..but tbh im sick of being on the s..t end of the stick ..i have an interest in a reasonable okish bitch spookie magic as a case in point .

We were keen to give her a crack at 520 when she was still quite young and although she had never won a race over 520 distance everytime we nommed her for lismore ..she was put strait into a 4-5th gde with much more expereinced better performed dogs ..so she never really won one there and i gave up . eventually she won her first 520 at the gardens recently in a tight come from behind affair .
So we thought ok lets take her down to wenty on a wednesday night give her a taste of the city and see if she cant go ok ..bearing in mind she has never even seen the track .
She finally drew a reasonabale box.1st time ever there ... in a f...n FFA !!!
Seriously shes won one race provincial over the distance in a very ordinary time and shes racing the Sydney guns ! Outside her is a dog thats won the back top and is 12 from 14 and a few other hot dogs as well !
Seriously im about ready to give up and start maybe sending my dogs interstate , or at least somehwere they can race and have a chance ?
It got me thinking I cant be the only one experieincing this kind of frustration ?
My questions are no 1 _who is this new grading system benefiting ? ...too my mInd the smaller battler becomes canon fodder for the big trainers who have a monopoly on the all the good dogs ..once your dog has won half a doz races it just makes up the numbers so the top dogs can win week in week out .
2 where is a good state to send dogs to get away from this ridculous system ? or does your nsw grading carry over interstate ?
What am i missing here ? surely i cant be the only one expereicng this riduclous BS ?


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 18308
Dogs 14498 / Races 1816

28 Sep 2020 08:15


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You are right David.

NSW grading needs a complete overhaul.

From 450m there definitely needs to be a longer run up to top grade




Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2810
Dogs 6 / Races 0

28 Sep 2020 08:25


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Contact the Graders and voice your concerns and email Big Tony.


David Mennie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 515
Dogs 1 / Races 1

28 Sep 2020 08:28


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Mark Donohue wrote:

Contact the Graders and voice your concerns and email Big Tony.


Ha Ha wheres that going to get me ?



Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2810
Dogs 6 / Races 0

28 Sep 2020 08:32


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See why you were graded that way. You said you didn't know a lot about the grading. Here's your chance. IMO you should never have been put into a FFA, especially in town.



Malcolm Smart
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 12544
Dogs 19 / Races 34

28 Sep 2020 08:58


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understand where you're coming from, I also nominated for WP, last start 4th, never got a run, they gave 1st starters preference, how TF can anyone have a bet knowing there are 5 first starters counting the reserves..........btw, if you write that letter can you also mention the box draws, my last 6 starts 4 x box 8s - 2 x box 5s random my arse, Example 2 dogs first one Mount Hope 17 sts 9 x box 7s, Second dog Ipso Facto 16sts 7 x box 1s.....bring back the banjo....(no disrespect to any trainer)


David Mennie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 515
Dogs 1 / Races 1

28 Sep 2020 09:45


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Malcolm Smart wrote:

understand where you're coming from, I also nominated for WP, last start 4th, never got a run, they gave 1st starters preference, how TF can anyone have a bet knowing there are 5 first starters counting the reserves..........btw, if you write that letter can you also mention the box draws, my last 6 starts 4 x box 8s - 2 x box 5s random my arse, Example 2 dogs first one Mount Hope 17 sts 9 x box 7s, Second dog Ipso Facto 16sts 7 x box 1s.....bring back the banjo....(no disrespect to any trainer)


mate you wanna talk about box draws ...check out the box draws of spookie magic ..tyhats another issue


David Mennie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 515
Dogs 1 / Races 1

28 Sep 2020 09:48


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Mark Donohue wrote:

See why you were graded that way. You said you didn't know a lot about the grading. Here's your chance. IMO you should never have been put into a FFA, especially in town.

well im not sure what your saying ..i think your saying yes i diont understand grading ...which is fair enough ...but then u say i should never have been put in a ffa ?



Malcolm Smart
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 12544
Dogs 19 / Races 34

28 Sep 2020 09:48


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 (0)


pretty good...

Starts 3 2 2 7 5 2 3 4
Wins 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 1
Places 1 1 2 3 1 0 1 0
Win % 33% 0% 0% 14% 20% 50% 33% 25%
Place % 67% 50% 100% 57% 40% 50% 67% 25%

.
.
Here's mine..
Box 1 - 0
2 - 2
3 - 3
4 - 2
5 - 3
6 - 2
7 - 3
8 - 7



David Mennie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 515
Dogs 1 / Races 1

28 Sep 2020 10:26


 (1)
 (0)


Malcolm Smart wrote:

pretty good...

yours has the 8 stuck to it ..mine has head 7 x box 4 and 5 x box 5 in her short career

Starts 3 2 2 7 5 2 3 4
Wins 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 1
Places 1 1 2 3 1 0 1 0
Win % 33% 0% 0% 14% 20% 50% 33% 25%
Place % 67% 50% 100% 57% 40% 50% 67% 25%

.
.
Here's mine..
Box 1 - 0
2 - 2
3 - 3
4 - 2
5 - 3
6 - 2
7 - 3
8 - 7





Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2810
Dogs 6 / Races 0

28 Sep 2020 11:43


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David Mennie wrote:

Mark Donohue wrote:

See why you were graded that way. You said you didn't know a lot about the grading. Here's your chance. IMO you should never have been put into a FFA, especially in town.

well im not sure what your saying ..i think your saying yes i diont understand grading ...which is fair enough ...but then u say i should never have been put in a ffa ?

What Iím suggesting David, is with what you have written it doesnít seem right. So, check the Grading Policy and present your case to Stewards. Sometimes, theyíre dismissive, but most of the time they are correct. Changing the policy is a separate issue. How you got into FFA is the prime concern. Sorry, but Iím a little busy atm to look at his form, but if someone hasnít checked for you Iíll look at it in a few days.


David Deguara
United Kingdom
(Team Member)
Posts 860
Dogs 79 / Races 91

28 Sep 2020 18:07


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David,

I wrote this post some 6 year ago re NSW grading, and not much, if anything has altered.

david deguara wrote:

The way I see it, that due to cost saving measures GRNSW have established a grading policy that creates most of the problems by it's very own nature.

Under the current grading system the industry has created an over abundance of 5th Grade greyhounds of which the system struggles to accommodate, and in truth can't. If the system allowed for a better, fairer and more constructive filtering of the grades, then I'm sure "problems" would be reduced ten fold.

How many 1st, 2nd or 3rd Graded dogs do you ever actually see, very few in truth, why? not because the calibre of dog doesn't exist, simply because the grading system doesn't really want them to exist, why - Money, pure and simple! they simply don't want to outlay the increased prizemoney that the higher graded races command/demand.

Further, the current system does nothing to help young dogs in the transition from Maiden status into Graded company ...as it stands, the system goes from "protecting" a dog one week i.e, they can only race against dogs that have never won a race as a Maiden, yet in theory, next week out of Maiden class it could potentially face a dog that has won 15 plus races ...where is the logic? surely a 6th grade (Juvenile, call it what you like), grade could be implemented whereby the transition process allows a young dog time to learn?

The system, in my opinion definitely needs a major re-think and revamp.

Moving on from that post I still maintain that there needs to be the implementation of a grade whereby dogs coming out of Maiden class should race against dogs of similar class, i.e. against dogs of similar wins where possible e.g. one win, but if not, up to say no more than four wins. Yes there will always be dogs within a grade which have better ability but as a participant I would sooner my greyhound just out of Maiden grade race against dogs with four wins as opposed to any number of wins.

If this 6th (or Juvenile), grade was established, then once a greyhound had won it's fifth race (irrespective of race distance(s) it could no longer ever race in 6th grade company again it would be categorised as 5th grade, and then move up (or down) the grades according to form.

Obviously, how a greyhound progressed/retrogressed through the grades from 5th grade onwards would need closer examination and thought, but in my opinion the intervention of a 6th grade, (or altering of the 5th grade classifaction), would allow participants a fairer racing option and also a chance for their greyhound(s) (especially those average to below average greyhounds), to at least have a better chance of winning some races, and those greyhound(s) with better ability, will naturally progress as they normally would.

Now some might argue that my idea would be catering for the mediocre, well perhaps it is, however, as we know average to mediocre greyhounds are far more common than those above average greyhounds, so why should we "shun" the majority? why shouldn't we look to assist those participants who race greyhounds of limited ability and look to assist by giving them a fairer chance by creating a fairer grading sytem ...or am i simply being too naive or idealistic?




David Mennie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 515
Dogs 1 / Races 1

28 Sep 2020 21:05


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Mark Donohue wrote:

Contact the Graders and voice your concerns and email Big Tony.


What i wouild say to the big T ..maate if you thiink this bitch has been graded fairly for her first trip to town after winning one provinvial 520 in ordinary time ..racing against free for all group class dogs ...then clearly you have a problem with your grading system.

The trainer did contact graders and was given the usual dismissive gobbldegook justifications ...needles to say the poor bloke wont be taking the dangerous trip down the freeway from the hunter valley then battliong thru sydney traffic to keenel at 5 and hang around till race 8 in sydney to get his arse handed to him and then drive the 3 hours and arrive home at 1-2 am


Mark Donohue
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2810
Dogs 6 / Races 0

28 Sep 2020 22:39


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Hi David, I think your venting your anger in the wrong place. See above. On face value, I felt you were Ďhard done byí. Enlighten us as to how the graders applied the system to your dog? Yes, itís complicated. IMO a six win Provincial winner going to an A2 meeting for the first time with no A1 / A2 wins or placings, and is placed in a FFA seems harsh. I suppose itís back to the drawing board.




David Mennie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 515
Dogs 1 / Races 1

29 Sep 2020 00:19


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yeah mate thats my point ...even if you can justify it with some wierd system ...the fact that the bitch is totally outclassed tells you the weird system is garbage

yes plan e now


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 1917
Dogs 0 / Races 0

29 Sep 2020 06:16


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David,

First, some editorial notes. Please get off the good/bad box band wagon. Itís the one thing that all authorities have got right Ė as repeatedly evidenced by external professionals auditing the processes. Some recent media releases even outlined the who and how. Random is random is random. Secondly, all states already have Rules defining how to treat an interstate dog - all overlaid on the local grading scheme (WA has some quite radical ones, for example).

The core of the issue is that we moved from a local to a central control over grading. The former generally worked well and avoided the hassles that David mentions. Often I have been there looking over the shoulder of the guy doing that job. Local control also allowed the local manager to innovate the type of races and dogs he wanted to make the program more interesting. But it also generated abuses so it was canned.

The transfer to central grading demanded that a set of rules were put in place to guide the grader(s). In time the job became more complex and so computerisation took over Ė requiring extra costs to pay for the programmer and the gear to use.

As we went on, more and more attention was paid to complaints from trainers, leading to additional rules and more expense. It just grew like Topsy. Nothing was ever deleted, only added. Worse, some states started classifying meetings as well as grades. More expense and more errors or misjudgements.

The recent addition of Saturday morning meetings also demanded more adjustments to the rules.

As mentioned here, the top two or three grades started disappearing, all due to authorities giving preference to ways and means to permit dogs to stay in the lower grades Ė and therefore to keep trainers happy. Victoria was the worst as at one stage a champion could wander round every track in the state picking up 5th grades (subsequently adjusted by adding even more Rules). Tasmania was just as bad (but has made minor adjustments since).

Theoretically, the current system is there to make everything fairer to all. Obviously, it still has problems.

But hereís a bright idea. What about making grading rules simpler and applying them across the country? In doing that you would have Maidens and five grades Ė 5 up to 1 Ė and no special categories, especially not the nonsensical No Penalty races, and no exclusion for feature races. Just move the winner up one. By all means divide the 5th Grades up between Novice and Others, but thatís just commonsense, which should be Rule #1.

You could them dump most of the computer programs, most of the workers paid to use them and everyone would know precisely where they stand Ė even the customers. Remember when you could rely every week on a Presidentís Stake being full of top class dogs?

Management would be the responsibility of the National Greyhound Commission, which would also produce form data, stud data and race results, all in formats the public could use readily. And it would be much cheaper, leaving more cash available for prize money.

Problem solved.



David Mennie
Australia
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Posts 515
Dogs 1 / Races 1

29 Sep 2020 07:58


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FAIR ENOUGH TY FOR THE INPUT ..STILL NO ONE ADRESSED ONE OF MY MAIN QUESTIONS ...WHO BENEFITS MOST FROM THIS NEW GRADING SYSTEM ?
I DONT PURPOPRT TO SPEAK FOR MANY PEOPLE AT ALL , BUT FROM WHAT I AM HEARING MANY MANY PEOPLE ARE UNHAPPY WITH THIS GDING SYSTEM , POSSIBLY I AM WRONG ?
ALSO MANY PEOPLE DIASGREE WITH 20 MTH OLD PUS RACING 3-4 YEAR OLD SEASONED CAMPAIGNERS BUT NO ONE HAS COME UP WITH ANYTHING THERE ?
ALSO ALL THESE COMPUTER PROGRAMS AND THE DRAWS , MOST OPLE KNOW ITS NOT FAIR OR RANDOM ..IE WITNESS ANY TRAINER WITH 2 DOGS NOMMED , INVARIABLY THEY WILL BE DRAWN SIDE BY SIDE ..IT HAPPENS REGULARLY ...EVERYIONE KNOWS ITS A GLITCH /SHAM .. BITCH I HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING HAS HAD 7 X BOX 4 AND 5 X BOX 5 IN HER SHORT CAREER ..IS IT JUST BAD LUCK ? HEADQUARTERS COULD EASILY BUY A LOTTO MACHINE ..GET KAREN PIONNI OR DELVENE OUT OF RETIREMENT UPLOAD ALL THE RACE DRAWS LIVE ANALOGUE STYLE ..LET EVERY ONE SEE THE DRAWS BEING DONE !
MY QUESTION ABOUT INTERSTATE WAS GENUINE BECAUSE THE WAY NSW IS FOR A BATTLER OWNER AND OR TRAINER ..ITS GETTING JUST TOO DAMN HARD ...ADD ON TOP THE FREAKIN GWIC OVEREACH NIGHTMARE AND YOU STARTB THINKING THERE HAS GOTTA BE BETTER THAN THIS ..OR YOU WOULD HOPE ?


Kenneth Markham
(Verified User)
Posts 236
Dogs 0 / Races 0

29 Sep 2020 15:33


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In a nutshell David the pro trainers are always the ones who benefit from our grading system.That is also borne out by prize money increases for Wenty and not provincial tracks and being a Liberal state the rich get richer and the poorer get poorer.


David Mennie
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 515
Dogs 1 / Races 1

29 Sep 2020 20:42


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I WOULD CONCUR !

posts 19