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Finish On Lure in NSW page  1 2 3 4 5 6 

Chris van Vegchel
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 443
Dogs 3 / Races 0

30 Nov 2015 02:51


 (1)
 (0)

After listening to Rob Britton speak a couple of weeks ago at Maitland I agree Jack. We don't need a study. We need to learn from history.
Some aspects of our racing should be "Americanised" IMO. Even if it's just at certain tracks until it can be evaluated with quantifiable data.



Jack Gatty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2055
Dogs 1 / Races 0

30 Nov 2015 03:57


 (0)
 (0)

Exactly Chris - these studies have been done all over the world and there is no need to do them again - what needs to be done is to start implementing common sense improvements. If our dogs only have an average of 11 starts and the American average is 30 plus,then common sense tells you that their track and lure design is working alot better than ours.


Sandro Bechini
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 17226
Dogs 13938 / Races 1798

14 May 2018 22:43


 (1)
 (0)

Here is a convert to the FOL

EXTERNAL LINK



Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 806
Dogs 0 / Races 0

15 May 2018 01:16


 (2)
 (0)

Jack,

SO far as I can determine, wordwide studies have been confined to either (a) surfaces or (b) turn banking - both with reference to galloping actions.

Other variables include ...

Turn radius
Camber transition from straight to turn
Distance from start to turn
Positioning of boxes
Shape of track - from circle to straight
Age/experience of runners
Habits of runners (rail/wide/centre) (slow/fast beginners)
Style of lure
Time of day
Inside/outside lure

In other words those studies are all of bits and pieces, not of the whole package.

Anyway UTS is two thirds of the way thru the exercise so time will tell.

NB Wenty and Richmond have always been sub-standard, despite various works programs, primarily due to disruptive first turns.


Gary Brown
(Verified User)
Posts 227
Dogs 0 / Races 0

15 May 2018 02:59


 (8)
 (0)

Bruce Teague wrote:

Jack,

SO far as I can determine, wordwide studies have been confined to either (a) surfaces or (b) turn banking - both with reference to galloping actions.

Other variables include ...

Turn radius
Camber transition from straight to turn
Distance from start to turn
Positioning of boxes
Shape of track - from circle to straight
Age/experience of runners
Habits of runners (rail/wide/centre) (slow/fast beginners)
Style of lure
Time of day
Inside/outside lure

In other words those studies are all of bits and pieces, not of the whole package.

Anyway UTS is two thirds of the way thru the exercise so time will tell.

NB Wenty and Richmond have always been sub-standard, despite various works programs, primarily due to disruptive first turns.

Unfortunately Bruce the studies will remain flawed, while ever the data on injuries and or post race/trial sickness are confined to Race night, where there are many variables e.g. Undetected injuries whilst the animal is warm or distracted by the next race, inexperienced Vets Surgeons, Rushing of staff to get home after the last, no record of 24 or 48 hour injuries or sickness (how many were sick Sunday after swimming around a very soggy track Saturday) etc etc etc etc.......


Bruce Teague
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 806
Dogs 0 / Races 0

15 May 2018 06:47


 (0)
 (0)

Gary,

Quite so, although I note some stewards asking trainers to let them know of "tomorrow" injuries. It is also a racing rule that all injuries should be reported anyway (ha ha).

I have not talked to UTS about that under-reporting in particular but the syndrome is well known.

However, end decisions or recommendations may not depend on high statistical accuracy any more than you can predict exactly what a greyhound will do, or what it will be allowed to do. It will also be valid to suggest that an X situation will be more desirable than a Y situation if using comparably structured examples.

The quantity of injury types and track parameters are huge anyway. Plus there is the additional unknown of the genetic and racing history of the injured dog.

Further, there are many more disruptions than those which result in injury so the former would have to rate much higher in conclusions than the latter.

Further again, many injuries, particularly those due to falls, are a function of individual dog habits rather than the track's configuration. IE good field dogs versus blunderbusses. I am sure you have had both. Ideally, you would delete the blunderers from the stats but that is hardly practicable.

There is little engineering precision in this subject, albeit a number of figures will necessarily appear in the final report.

That report may well be capable of challenge in some areas but I doubt you could call it "flawed". In any event, it will be a lot better than what we have now, which is nil. Or, worse, current shortcomings are the result of decades of misuse by old fogies, the "she'll be right" brigade and engineering firms which have no greyhound or racing experience.

Even worse again is that big bucks were poured into rebuilding two tracks (Dapto and Richmond) to end up with exactly the same faults that were there before. Here's a trivia test for you: name the trip where the inside two dogs invariably jump to the right at the start.

Closer to home, what about all the dogs that bumped their noses trying to anticipate the Cessnock lids opening? What's the story there?



Mark Staines
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3317
Dogs 68 / Races 13

15 May 2018 07:10


 (0)
 (0)

The N.S.W. GBOTA has already stated they don't want the FOL because it gives the sport an undesirable image !


Kev Galloway
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2288
Dogs 2 / Races 0

15 May 2018 07:40


 (6)
 (0)

The GBOTA also negotiated the 99 year shafting of NSW greyhound stakeholders,so WHY would they agree to anything beneficial to greyhound welfare?


Michael Geraghty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3709
Dogs 14 / Races 15

15 May 2018 10:29


 (0)
 (0)

Mark Staines wrote:

The N.S.W. GBOTA has already stated they don't want the FOL because it gives the sport an undesirable image !

You are joking, aren't you?


Mark Staines
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3317
Dogs 68 / Races 13

15 May 2018 12:04


 (0)
 (0)

Definitely not !


Michael Geraghty
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3709
Dogs 14 / Races 15

15 May 2018 12:31


 (4)
 (0)

God help NSW.

Speechless.


Mark Staines
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3317
Dogs 68 / Races 13

15 May 2018 12:52


 (6)
 (0)

Not even God can save N.S.W.


Ian Rose
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 283
Dogs 4 / Races 0

16 May 2018 00:07


 (3)
 (0)

Mark has anyone written to trump to see if infact he (god) can help


Terry Jordan
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3315
Dogs 0 / Races 0

16 May 2018 03:13


 (5)
 (0)

Mark Staines wrote:

Not even God can save N.S.W.


We don't need "God" Mark, we have "Bruce Almighty"!


Michael Peter Martin
New Zealand
(Verified User)
Posts 36
Dogs 0 / Races 0

16 May 2018 07:42


 (1)
 (0)

Mark Staines wrote:

The N.S.W. GBOTA has already stated they don't want the FOL because it gives the sport an undesirable image !

Here people think it is unkind not giving them some reward for their efforts (catching pens)



Kev Galloway
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2288
Dogs 2 / Races 0

16 May 2018 09:13


 (0)
 (0)

Michael Peter Martin wrote:

Mark Staines wrote:

The N.S.W. GBOTA has already stated they don't want the FOL because it gives the sport an undesirable image !

Here people think it is unkind not giving them some reward for their efforts (catching pens)


Michael,stupid would be a far more appropriate word than unkind.IMO


Matt James
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 989
Dogs 37 / Races 2

16 May 2018 11:17


 (2)
 (0)

Michael Peter Martin wrote:

Mark Staines wrote:

The N.S.W. GBOTA has already stated they don't want the FOL because it gives the sport an undesirable image !

Here people think it is unkind not giving them some reward for their efforts (catching pens)

I can see arguments for and against the finish on lure.

For: More and more dogs are needing the finish on lure.

Against: If you have a genuine chasing dog it doesn't do it much good being the 1st to finish on and having 7 dogs smash it from behind every start.



Matt James
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 989
Dogs 37 / Races 2

16 May 2018 11:32


 (6)
 (0)

This isn't going to be a popular opinion, but if you breed with a good chasing broodie to a sire that was a natural chaser (didn't need help), then give them plenty of handling and toys during rearing, then go to a breaker that doesn't cut corners, chances are the resulting pups should chase.




Kev Galloway
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 2288
Dogs 2 / Races 0

16 May 2018 12:55


 (1)
 (1)

Matt James wrote:

Michael Peter Martin wrote:

Mark Staines wrote:

The N.S.W. GBOTA has already stated they don't want the FOL because it gives the sport an undesirable image !

Here people think it is unkind not giving them some reward for their efforts (catching pens)

I can see arguments for and against the finish on lure.

For: More and more dogs are needing the finish on lure.

Against: If you have a genuine chasing dog it doesn't do it much good being the 1st to finish on and having 7 dogs smash it from behind every start.


Matt,they are eased onto the lure against being bullied and fought in the pen,New Zealand administrators play our Australian dunces off a break,gaining greyhounds because of our dunces.


Mark Staines
Australia
(Verified User)
Posts 3317
Dogs 68 / Races 13

16 May 2018 14:20


 (2)
 (1)

Matt James wrote:

This isn't going to be a popular opinion, but if you breed with a good chasing broodie to a sire that was a natural chaser (didn't need help), then give them plenty of handling and toys during rearing, then go to a breaker that doesn't cut corners, chances are the resulting pups should chase.

Yes they should chase, but will they keep chasing for no reward ???

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