" chances are "...yet no guarantee...

Why not go the whole hog and breed with a good chasing broodie to a sire that was a natural chaser give them plenty of handling and toys during rearing educate them to chase at the same time with industry standard lures (duck callers etc) .. go to a breaker that uses industry standard lures (duck callers etc) .. race behind industry standard lures (duck callers etc) finish on to industry standard lures (duck callers etc)

I am not aware of any claim by NSW GBOTA which is technically competent. That applies especially to track layouts. It is merely a handful of people offering their opinions. Just to name three, Wenty, Bulli and Gosford all have design faults.

If it has any reliable evidence of the "image" issue I would be glad to hear it.

Meantime, I have yet to hear of any significant problems with the Geelong FOL introduction - rather the reverse. And, if it is genuinely concerned about public image I would suggest GBOTA arrange immediate improvements to camera work at Wenty and Bulli and re-organising the presentation of the Gosford complex, which is now hidden behind buildings, while the entrance is difficult for the public to see. Not welcoming at all.

Not sure about the source of your figures although I think we can accept that USA dogs race more often, sometimes too often as because they are mostly located at the track they often have a multi-weekly racing frequency. They also often race in 6-dog fields.

You would also have to relate those figures to the total numbers on offer and to the injury numbers at various stages. There are also some queries about drug usage (see recent Florida examples).

From casual observation, I can see no major race differences which can be attributed to "track and lure design" but certainly the surface softness is worth exploring more.

And I repeat an earlier comment - there have been no exhaustive studies around the world or here. What has been looked at are galloping actions, surface designs and injuries on turns - that's about it.

I have seen so many live greyhound races with FOL that it would be ridiculous to even hazard a guess at the number, yet could count on one hand the amount of dogs injured at the lure. I have also seen a fraction of that number of races on TV with catching pens and still seen potential injuries happening.

Believe me as trying to give you helpful advice when I say a lot of your problems will be solved with FOL. There will not be a rash of injuries because of it. We have had some stinking hot days here this season and it is almost laughable to say that FOL would have had a detrimental effect on any dogs racing in it.

Additionally, the only published detail here came from QGRA (as it was) after the first year long FOL trial was conducted. They reported some minor scratches but generally much less than in the pen - where injuries could be more serious.

The experiment was then dumped as the state's leading trainer took his bat and ball and decamped to NSW - later to return and get thumped for live baiting.

Overall, QGRA also recorded smaller numbers of FTC and fighting when using the FOL.

SA did a comparable test but did not publish detailed results. In any event their work was flawed because it ended up being based on a very small sample of trainers' opinions. So they now have a mix and match system which is a bit confusing although it does offer some choice.

Vic did a fair amount of experimenting but never published their conclusions (par for the course) other than to approve Geelong to commence the FOL - which most people seem to applaud.

I seem to recall NZ reported no great problems with injuries.

Perhaps it is all a function of lure driver techniques? If that.

There have been a number of posts on this thread that expound the theory of if it ain't broke don't fix, meaning we have done this successfully for years why change.

The difference in this instance is it is broke.

From my side of the fence it appears that the traditional ways you have used to reward dogs thus encouraging chase is no longer available to you. You do have another option that will help. Go figure

Even if it was accepted that a quick decision on lures was required in the context of live baiting, wouldn't it have been common-sense for the knee-jerk decisions made on lures to be interim decisions, pending a decision based on authoritative independent research?

1. If the decision-making bodies were businesses rather than public authorities, they would almost certainly have already conducted authoritative independent research (and probably received government grant support for doing so).

2. That research would be a major factor in decisions made.

3. They would also be under scrutiny from members/shareholders, customers and regulators for compliance with their statutory responsibilities.

And in this case there are statutory functions under the respective Racing Acts for the industry regulators, being:
NSW
" to undertake research and investigation into any aspect of the breeding of greyhounds and of greyhound racing generally"
Vic
" to carry out research into aspects of greyhound racing to assist in planning future development"

So agree with the point that all the debate means nothing, but mainly because the regulators haven't bought in.

It would probably be better for pressure to be brought to bear on the regulators to meet their responsibilities, and for them to also consult with participants along the way to a properly supported outcome.

Agree Michael, but in the eyes of some, not so.
Do we have another option that would help?
Of course we do, Michael!
1,000s of options, possibly 10,000 options!
Opportunities abound!
Well, actually if you think about it, MILLIONS!
Synthetics everywhere you look!
Only limited by your imagination, Michael.
It's the way the world is being shaped...no more shmackos!
Synthetic wool, lamb chops, steak, ducks, dog poo for the poo eaters, gnomes, aliens, grass(greens), etcetera, etcetera...ALL PLASTIC IMITATIONS.
Dogs are going crazy over them.
Just gotta get them to move...Greys chase anything, Michael!
Get them to make a little sound...bingo!
Well, there are two senses covered.
Greys love to PLAY.
Couple of wee problems though, maybe I'm wrong...
No smell, no taste...well that's not entirely true...petro smell, petrol taste...mmmm.
Two senses out of four chase senses ain't bad.
Once the sight and sound senses are overtaken by the reality of being treat like a doodlehead and the bumps and knocks of racing demand the promise of something more realistically rewarding, we might find little cracks appearing in the INTEGRITY of the wee little animal.

Polly want a cracker?
Polly doesn't like fake crackers.
Polly likes to spit fake crackers back in your face.

Waak waak.

Not sure if the links work - it is race 10 at Wagga Friday to 18th May.

EXTERNAL LINK
Now read the Steward report - did anyone else see more than one dog marr??

Shortly after the start TIGGERLONG BOOM (1), OUTLAW ARNHEM (2),
TAKE THE CAKE (3), DINTYS CHANCE (4) and HEAT UP (5) collided checking
OUTLAW ARNHEM (2), TAKE THE CAKE (3), DINTYS CHANCE (4) and HEAT
UP (5). On the turn off the back straight TIGGERLONG BOOM (1) and
MINKAS DESTINY (8) collided checking TIGGERLONG BOOM (1) which fell
as a result. On the turn into the home straight TAKE THE CAKE (3) eased
and collided with MINKAS DESTINY (8). Shortly after OUTLAW ARNHEM (2)
eased and collided with TAKE THE CAKE (3) and MINKAS DESTINY (8)
causing TAKE THE CAKE (3) to fall as a result. Shortly after entering the
home straight LOCHIES MATE (6) eased.
TIGGERLONG BOOM (1) was vetted following the event. The greyhound
sustained a fractured left radius/ulna. The greyhound was euthanaised.
TAKE THE CAKE (3) was vetted following the event. No apparent injury was
detected.
LOCHIES MATE (6) was vetted following the event. No apparent injury was
detected.
OUTLAW ARNHEM (2) was vetted following the event. The greyhound
sustained injuries to the left stifle and hip. A 14 day incapacitation period
was issued.
Stewards charged TAKE THE CAKE (3) with breach of GAR 69A (1) for failing
to purse the lure with due commitment. The greyhound is stood down for
28 days from racing and Wagga Wagga and must perform a satisfactory
trial before any future nominations will be accepted

Ignoring everything! BUT WE CONSULTED!

Stewards charged LOCHIES MATE (6) with breach of GAR 69A (1) for failing to purse the lure with due commitment. The greyhound is stood down for 28 days from racing and Wagga Wagga and must perform a satisfactory trial before any future nominations will be accepted.
Stewards charged OUTLAW ARHNEM (3) with breach of GAR 69B for failing to purse the lure with due commitment by reason of injury. The greyhound must perform a satisfactory trial before any future nominations will be accepted.
INJURIES AND INCAPACITATION PERIODS
Greyhound name and number
Injury
Incapacitation Period
OUTLAW ARNHEM (2)
LEFT STIFLE AND HIP
14 DAYS
FATALITIES
NIL
RELATED EUTHANASIA
TIGGERLONG BOOM (1) Fractured radius/ulna.
COMPLETE RUN ON
7 4 5 8 6 2 (1 3 FELL)
12 X 1
22.83 (10.54)
SWABS TAKEN
DANA ALI (7) Direction of Stewards.
RACE 11 MEN OF LEAGUE RIVERINA 1-4 WINS HEAT 4 GRADE 5 -320M
WINNER
N/A
PERFORMANCE/
INCIDENTS
Race 11 was declared a NO RACE as the greyhounds caught the lure on the first turn due to the lure driver no being able to see the lead greyhound due to heavy fog.
SPRINGVALE MIKE (1) was vetted after falling on the first turn. No apparent injury was detected.
As this race was a heat for a final to be held on 25th May 2018 a ballot was conducted and HIDE THE KITTY (7) and DREAMTIME VISION (4) were drawn.
INJURIES AND INCAPACITATION PERIODS
Greyhound name and number
Injury
Incapacitation Period
NIL
FATALITIES
NIL
RELATED EUTHANASIA
NIL
COMPLETE RUN

A bit foggy.

The incident in question was a three way collision, mostly caused by the 6. The route followed by 3 is questionable but I note that the turn itself and the turn into the straight encourages dogs to move out (see also other races). At one point,3 may well have been moving towards 1 but it is hard to tell given what I said above.

Either way, I would be checking the camber. But it is a bit off topic.

The sad part about all that is the 1 was the most innocence of the four players and paid the ultimate price.

Condolences to the owner and trainer.

A sad example of where this industry is headed when the INTEGRITY of the dogs is continually compromised.

Quite so.

Consultation means little in this industry. If conducted, it is no more than a vehicle to let off steam. Customarily, authorities then do whatever they were going to do.

Research is a dirty word. For example, GRNSW researched/consulted on breeding by using a cheap, canned device which asked a string of questions which had little to do with breeding but lots to do with grading.

GA did no research or consultation on cobalt but simply had someone count the grams in a number of dogs' systems at a given point in time. That effort had been prompted by thoroughbred rule changes, which also involved little or no exhaustive scientific background. Their theme was that a little cobalt was OK but a lot must be illegal.

In neither case was there any check of the effect of cobalt (or arsenic) on health or performance (albeit too much was known to be bad). IE, no research of value. They might just as well have looked into the impact of mineral water v pure water.

Also, in such any case any consultation would have been a waste of time as the consultees would not have a clue either. It's a highly technical subject.

Go again - committees, consultees and material manufacturers might think they know lots about rug colours but they investigated the wrong question. They should have asked a professional colour consultant to assess what the human eye sees in various circumstances around the track. That would also embrace weather, track lighting, natural dog colours and distances.

Back to the original point - clearly, the ban on various lure types was implemented as a guess and as a perceived method of combatting bad live baiting acts. It did not address any of many options, including (dead) skins. So two possible wrongs were linked to form a right. It also ignored points made by WDA and others that toys to play with are a good thing, almost regardless of what they are made of. (A lure is just another toy).

Conclusions on "overbreeding" were no more than wild assumptions based on incorrect data. In three states, no-one conducted research, whether good or bad.

Baird ads claimed that only eight countries supported greyhound racing when actually double that number allow racing and betting, and many more allow racing itself. He did not bother to do any research but just copied errors made by McHugh.

The McHugh Commission claimed stuff about community expectations
and social licence without bothering to conduct research on either - it just assumed.

Add all this up and you get an aversion to proper research - or a misunderstanding of what research means. More accurately, it is management incompetence.

No responsible commercial organisation could get way with any one of these, let alone a long string of them.

The system is broken - big time.

PS: The much-criticised Paul Newsom did commission proper research into the background to live baiting and into track design. Of course, he made other blues but he was outside the "system", not in it.