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David Fennelly Ireland (Verified User) Posts 37 Dogs 3 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 14:27
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Just putting this out there to you all. Example 1: I recently had a sprinter running and I always seeded him middle as he needed trap 3 or 4. However anytime he ran he seemed to be seeded in 5 or 6 because there was either 1 wide seed or no wide seed. He never won from either trap as it was to wide. after a while I got sick of this and seeded him inside. It was only then I started to get my MIDDLE traps hense dog started to win his races. Also now I have a bitch running who is an out an out railer which is properly seeded and Im after getting 4, 5 and 6 in the last 6 runs. Im a regular race goer and I constantly see where dogs are seeded inside and are middle to wide runners, hense the 1st example. Can the racing managers in my second example not see that my bitch needs trap 1 or 2 as she's causing absolutly chaos boring for rails. The question I'd like to put accross is are owners and trainers out there not seeding middle runners middle because of getting an outside draw? My second question is: do Managers not use their own discression regarding proper seeding based on what they have seen of you dog running? Any views on this I'd greatly appreciate it.
Dave Gregory United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 625 Dogs 31 / Races 207 03 Oct 2010 14:34
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It's been a problem in the UK for a long time - trainers seeding middle-running dogs rails to avoid traps 5/6.
The Laurels Final at Belle Vue has a dog that, IMO, should be seeded Middle, if not Wide, in trap 1 and a genuine railer in trap 2 - and this has prompted comment in today's Racing Post.
IMO there should be an increase in seedings - to 4 (R, R/M, M/W, W) or even 5 (R, R/M, M, M/W, W)
This may encourage trainers to be more honest when seeding entries, and should lead to safer racing.
James Brodie United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1089 Dogs 4 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 14:59
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Abolishing seeding altogether means few arguments...
David Fennelly Ireland (Verified User) Posts 37 Dogs 3 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 15:15
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Thanks for the reply Dave. I didnt think the U.K had this problem as well. However its a nation wide problem here. I dont mean to be moaning but its very fustrating and is unfair all round.
As for Deborah's reply I dont think that would solve the issue or is the way forward for fair greyhound racing.
James Brodie United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1089 Dogs 4 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 15:39
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David, when seeding was abolished for all open races in the early 80s at the White City, it came as no surprise to many people that injuries were radically reduced, and the best dogs won those Derby's with no arguments. Fact.
Dave Gregory United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 625 Dogs 31 / Races 207 03 Oct 2010 15:42
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There's a bit of a difference between the old White City and Crayford or Harlow - try running non-seeded races round tight tracks with short runs to the bend and you'd have chaos.
Steve Bailey United Kingdom
Posts 148 Dogs 0 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 15:52
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Deborah,if the non-seeding experiment was such a success why was it abandoned?
Mark Glennerster United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 3208 Dogs 0 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 16:00
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Problem is that some racing offices do not always seed dogs as they should, there is often a difference of opinion between the RM and the owner/trainer which can lead to an element of mistrust and bitterness.
I know without seeding many a time I had a dog drawn in an unfavourable trap and in many ways the dog stood no chance but occassionally the dog would win from an adverse draw.
Seeding has always been a contensious issue since Major Critchley first introduced at GRA tracks, in those days there were only wide allocations although it did give RMs the freedom in those days to regularily put railers in those dreaded middle boxes.
How do we determine a dogs running style? is it how they run in the straights, I have many times seen dogs rail in the straights yet drift off on the turns, most think the tight railer that moves off on the turns is sore and in many cases its the correct diagnosis of the dogs running style.
James Brodie United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1089 Dogs 4 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 16:48
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steve bailey wrote:
Deborah,if the non-seeding experiment was such a success why was it abandoned?
Well the White City closed in the mid 80s Steve and Wimbledon didnt carry on the successful change for the better in the Derby. Only they would know the reason...
As for comparing Crayford to the White City- yeah, chalk n cheese , but there seems mayhem at that wretched little track everytime anyway. Not seeding will at least mean often breaks will be missed and they'll be much less trouble IMO....but hey, we've done all this before!
Gerry Gorman United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 228 Dogs 0 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 19:21
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David at the risk of being repetitive , I have addressed this issue on many posts and with Barry Coleman i.g.b. , may I suggest that initially all dogs should be defined as middle runners . A dog should be seeded wide ONLY when it shows a tendency to move out and likewise a dog should be seeded rails ONLY when it shows a tendency to move on to the rails . The track manager has the responsibility to administer seeding not the owner but I think that the owners views should be taken into consideration . There obviously will be times when there may be several wide or rails runners in the same race which cannot be helped especially during competitions but for the life of me I cannot understand why the powers that be don't see the sense in this suggestion . Like you I am sick of seeing dogs ruining races diving in or out and causing injuries as well and vets aren't easy paid these days .
David Fennelly Ireland (Verified User) Posts 37 Dogs 3 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 20:13
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Hi Gerry, I aggree with you 110% its a simple solution but lets say for instance I was to go to my local racing manager to put my point accross to him I feel I would be treated unfairly regarding trap draws in the future. Would you agree? At the end of the day will there ever be anything done about this as Im sure I am not the only one out there with the same problem and Im sure it has been brought to the attention of the Racing Managers & I.G.B but only to fall on 'deaf ears'. I understand exactly where your coming from Gerry its a great solution.
Mr John Dore United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1341 Dogs 14 / Races 0 03 Oct 2010 20:20
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wise up guys why do you think things are not done right? to make results unpredictable at the expense of the mug owners - its a big bad world where the addicts are not supposed to win!
Gerry Gorman United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 228 Dogs 0 / Races 0 04 Oct 2010 17:30
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John , that's the trouble , I am wise to the intricacies of the game and after 50 yrs racing at that , nevertheless I am an eternal optimist and still hope to see the day that greyhound racing will be run fairly which , in my view , is the only way it can survive . David , I don't see why you should fear speaking openly to the manager and discuss re-seeding your dog and I would not expect a vindictive reaction on his part .
Michael Murphy Ireland (Verified User) Posts 4723 Dogs 1673 / Races 1 04 Oct 2010 17:38
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Got to agree that transparency and fairness is the only chance of survival for our sport. A minority of track employees leave a great deal to be desired but I do feel that it is worse to allow ourselves to be intimidated by these people rather than expressing our views.
Mugs.
Mr John Dore United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1341 Dogs 14 / Races 0 05 Oct 2010 12:12
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I agree with you men and have empathy with David - but I have had personal battles on this topic especially when I was on the executive of the IGOBF - we worked through the late great Frank O Connel and got our motion that the trap draws should be emailed to an independent GOBA member at each track at the same time the track recieved the draw back from Limerick. The powers that be would not agree to it. They tried to kick it to touch by saying they would email all the draws to one person in Cork but it never happened and anyways it would not work because it would be too remote from each track. To be a bit perverse it makes the thing a bit more interesting in that you have to second and third guess racing managers. If you have patience you will get a better price by winning from the "coffin" boxes 6&1. We was setting up an A5 dog for a sprint one time - of course we expected to get trap 1 and we kept trialling him from it - because we were in trap 1 we got 5/2 to 2k and won by 12 lenghts. If we were in trap 4 we would have been at best 6/4
There are two interrlated problems - the trap draw would not be so critical if there was not such a trap bias with the new traps - ie everybody wants the middle and very few trap 1 or 6. It will be interesting to see how the bias goes with the new new traps at waterford and now limerick.
I have an idea that might sort out the lack of entries and proper seeding by trainers and us(owners) its fairly radical but it might work if there was the courage to try it.
If there are 2 middle seeds they are drawn first so they get 3and 4 then if there are any wide seeds they are drawn and filled fron the outside in then the inside seeds are drawn from the inside out. so if there are for example no wide seeds thr middle seeds go in 3 and 4 and some of the inside go in 5 and 6. #
I think there would be more properly seeded entries and more dogs that actually got the trap that thier running style suggested.
I would also have the racing manager take the role of seeding the dogs after the first 4 races and no seeding for qualifying and no seeding for the first 4 races with a committee of appeal for every track.
Mr John Dore United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 1341 Dogs 14 / Races 0 05 Oct 2010 13:23
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Seamus I would welcome this big time but I can tell you because of the trap bias all one would have to do is be patient and hounds with good early would piss in from the middle - there would be a lot of skint bookies
Gerry Gorman United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 228 Dogs 0 / Races 0 06 Oct 2010 15:10
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Seamus , currently seeding is the sole responsibility of the track manager , I checked with Barry Coleman on this but owners can ask to have their dogs re-seeded , the manager makes the decision . I doubt if it works like this in practice but that's the rule . There is no inside seeding as dogs are automatically termed inside before they start racing , although owners can ask to have wide or middle removed later on. This to my mind just does not make sense , very few people ask for middle seeding because inevitably their dog ends up in t6 . This causes mayhem in races when RAILERS end up drawn outside middle or even wide runners . THIS RUNS CONTRARY TO THE WHOLE IDEA OF SEEDING . My solution is to name all dogs initially as middle and then seed RAILS or WIDE as dogs show a CLEAR preference in their style of running . As usual there will be owners who will want a particular seeding for reasons other than running style , for instance trapping etc but the safety of our dogs should be of paramount importance and it's up to the managers to be firm and determined in cases like this .
Gerry Gorman United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 228 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Oct 2010 21:50
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How appropriate , had a runner tonight in Drumbo drawn t3 , dog in t4 dived across to the rails taking out t3 , t2 and t1 , fortunately my dog appears to be uninjured but I'll know better in the morning . Maybe sometime , someone will waken up and recognize common sense and hopefully it will be one of those chosen few who think they know it all but then dream on Gerry !
Andy Clarke United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 689 Dogs 32 / Races 0 07 Oct 2010 22:10
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It's a standing joke with me now, If i seed rails and there are two railers, then guess what..trap 2. If i seed rails and there are 4 railers..guess what trap 4. If i seed wide and ther are 2 wides, guess what..trap 5. I could go on and on about this fiasco, small trainers GET SHAFTED FACT. Why dont they just put in the racing calender " The Trap Draw will be made according to some predetermind view of which only we are party to know about and thats about as random as it gets". It stinks and needs sorting,its so corrupt, thats why they will never make the draws for " one off" opens public or otherwise tranparent(i,m talking UK here). The first round of comps are no better. The ONLY time it becomes random, is the 2nd round onwards, otherwise, its hooky. p.s. I am talking here about my experience of racing in the Uk. My trips over to Ireland are different, i have NO complaints about racing trap draws in that fair Isle, nothing but praise over there, proper sporting people.
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