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Kyle Bradley Australia (Verified User) Posts 860 Dogs 2 / Races 0 11 Mar 2014 05:19
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Look up a dog hairy garry and tell me how he is graded correctly
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3237 Dogs 6 / Races 0 11 Mar 2014 08:01
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Rob Horne wrote:
The Vic grading structure is the best in the Country in my opinion.
It encourages and rewards a better class of dogs. The sport should be about constantly improving. I have no qualms with a better dog getting the goods over mine.
. Rob,
We supposed to have inherited the VRC grading system with some inclusions and exceptions. Go figure. Hopefully, they'll modify it because in some cases, it's ridiculous.
Robert Whitelaw Australia (Verified User) Posts 1977 Dogs 0 / Races 0 05 Sep 2014 23:51
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Mark Donohue wrote:
Rob Horne wrote:
The Vic grading structure is the best in the Country in my opinion.
It encourages and rewards a better class of dogs. The sport should be about constantly improving. I have no qualms with a better dog getting the goods over mine.
. Rob,
We supposed to have inherited the VRC grading system with some inclusions and exceptions. Go figure. Hopefully, they'll modify it because in some cases, it's ridiculous.
Mark why are the graders here in NSW nearly every day re drawing races ? Example Gosford yesterday a race re drawn one dog had the one in a race then along came a re draw , the dog that had the one in the first draw left out of that race, then drawn in a later race as a res, there was a scratching in box one res dog gets a run and believe it or not the dog shit in. when the trainer Question the grader his answer was, we left a dog out by mistake ! Mark that's justice for you !
Graham Sheather Australia (Verified User) Posts 4867 Dogs 2 / Races 3 06 Sep 2014 00:07
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robert whitelaw wrote:
Mark Donohue wrote:
Rob Horne wrote:
The Vic grading structure is the best in the Country in my opinion.
It encourages and rewards a better class of dogs. The sport should be about constantly improving. I have no qualms with a better dog getting the goods over mine.
. Rob,
We supposed to have inherited the VRC grading system with some inclusions and exceptions. Go figure. Hopefully, they'll modify it because in some cases, it's ridiculous.
Mark why are the graders here in NSW nearly every day re drawing races ? Example Gosford yesterday a race re drawn one dog had the one in a race then along came a re draw , the dog that had the one in the first draw left out of that race, then drawn in a later race as a res, there was a scratching in box one res dog gets a run and believe it or not the dog shit in. when the trainer Question the grader his answer was, we left a dog out by mistake ! Mark that's justice for you !
ok so tell me this a greyhound was drawn at wagga tonight as first reserve and was renominated for the Wednesday meeting and wasn't even drawn now this greyhound is a first starter and there were 2 other first starters drawn in front of it. When questioned about leaving the dog out when the trainer thought that when you are drawn as a reserve you get preference when you nom next. The excuse was that the dog pt trial was at Bathurst and not at wagga now when does this make any difference we have to pt our dogs so we can get a start on a tab track so what difference does it make if its at wagga or at bullamaknka? Someone please explain because im confused?
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3237 Dogs 6 / Races 0 06 Sep 2014 00:39
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Hi Graham,
We used to get privilege when we were first or second reserve and drawn at the next week's meeting. Apparently, GRNSW did away with it and now it's a lottery. One staff member claimed that technically and theoretically my dog could be a reserve every week if better dogs nominate. However, with first starters there are no points only a lottery draw. . It shouldn't make a difference if the dog PTs at one place or another as it stands now. However, IMO two rules that should be changed immediately. They are, reserves get a start the following week and the dog who PT trials at the track that they nominate should receive some preferential treatment, but not in favour of the reserves from the week before.
Bill Deguara Australia (Verified User) Posts 314 Dogs 4 / Races 1 06 Sep 2014 02:01
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Graham, Graders in N.S.W. have so many bloody excuses up their sleeves that you will never get a satisfactory answer out of them, example- reserve last week but did'nt get a run, answer, all other runners ran a place on track last week. did'nt get a run- other greyhounds got in on prefernces, did;nt get a run-other greyhounds had more points, reserve but again did;nt get a run-you nominated somewhere else so you lost your preference, but you can be used week in and week out to make a race up for someone else,but don't you dare ask why.
Paul McCusker Australia (Verified User) Posts 99 Dogs 1 / Races 0 06 Sep 2014 03:41
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How's this one. I nominated a greyhound for 5th grade heats at Gosford on Friday the 5th September with a 2nd preference for Richmond 400m tonight the 6th. I received an email saying I had gained a start at 2nd reserve in race 7 for Gosford. At around 1pm GRNSW tried to ring me (I was asleep as I'm a shift worker) At 3pm I rang them and they informed me that I now never has a start as a greyhound had been left out. Fair enough. I asked what about the Richmond preference. They said the graders only work 10 to 2 ( probably the most important job besides the bloke that pays out the prize money) you will have to ring back tomorrow. So I ring at 8.30am the next morning ( they take phone noms between 8 and 9) the answer because you were given a start the Richmond nom was deleted. I asked how does this occur they answered It's not very common. I said that doesn't help me any. I then asked if they could look into it so it doesn't happen again not just to me but anyone. Then at work the next night I am starting to stew over this as being from the Hunter we have just lost 8 meetings for the month due to the gardens repairs. Gosford is handy but the Saturday meetings are not within 5 hours drive but that's another story. Anyway I got the phone and started to have a look at the order of choice and found that there was a greyhound with less points than my greyhound that was still left in the entry's ( not real happy now) So then I have a look at the grading policy being relatively new to training I am still learning the policy. So I come across the weighted point score on page 16 and to keep me awake I add the points of my bitch. Ok I come up with 89 points and they have 87 against her name. Now by my calculations there are 2 greyhounds in the entry's with less points. So I add there points just to make sure. they never added up as well (actually less) so I just grabbed 5 names from the list of entry's ( 3 right and 2 wrong). Rather than ring GRNSW about the points I emailed them with my concerns and problems asking for them to look into it. I suggest you keep an eye on the weighted point score for your dog to check its accuracy.
Some things I have found by asking questions. 1- Last start winners and place getters and reserves are not taken into account when there are heats. Only the weighted points score is taken into account. probably the same for a advertised one off feature. 2- Changes will only be made within 3 hours of the fields coming out. I have asked in my email if those runners not gaining a start be notified at the same time runners are notified (by email) so trainers or owners can check for themselves that everything is as it should be.
then to top the week off I nominated 2 dogs for potts park. I seen a 440m for 1 to 5 wins. After my snooze I check the fields no notification that I received a start. I check the race in question 8 starters no reserves. Then I notice 2 other 5th grade 440m races with 7 starters. So I check the order of entry both my dogs are in there. So I telephone GRNSW after 2pm around 3pm again. We will check (it says not enough points for the race) I said but there no reserves. There were 4 dogs that never had enough points. That's all we can help you with. I think Ok maybe just being 1 win greyhounds might be the reason or when checking the grades of dogs 2 3rd grade and 2 4th grade dogs were given runs and maybe they didn't want the 1 win 5th grade dogs up against them. So why didn't they didn't they put them in the straight out 5th grade. I'm thinking maybe because I nominated for the 1 to 5 win race they weren't considered for the others. Doesn't make sense to me when you could have at least 8 starters and maybe a reserve for the 2 races as well and haven't taken that option. Do GRNSW have an issue with the grading department or the grading computer system that's needs to be looked at. I see they are grading for the rest of Australia except Victoria. How do trainers from the other states get on with the 3 hour window when the grading department are only there for 4 hours. Food for thought.
Well that's my rant.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3237 Dogs 6 / Races 0 07 Sep 2014 08:38
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Hi Paul,
My disclaimer is I'm not an expert on Grading.
If you dog was nominated and eligible for the 1-5 wins then one would have thought you should have been included at least as a reserve. If it were a FFA they don't usually put a 5th grader into it.
Another good point you make is, who is paying our grader to grade other States and Territory meetings ???
Graham Sheather Australia (Verified User) Posts 4867 Dogs 2 / Races 3 07 Sep 2014 11:15
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Mark Donohue wrote:
Hi Graham,
We used to get privilege when we were first or second reserve and drawn at the next week's meeting. Apparently, GRNSW did away with it and now it's a lottery. One staff member claimed that technically and theoretically my dog could be a reserve every week if better dogs nominate. However, with first starters there are no points only a lottery draw. . It shouldn't make a difference if the dog PTs at one place or another as it stands now. However, IMO two rules that should be changed immediately. They are, reserves get a start the following week and the dog who PT trials at the track that they nominate should receive some preferential treatment, but not in favour of the reserves from the week before.
Just another one for you a greyhound that had won her last 2 starts one on the tab c the other on a d class track is drawn as a reserve and a greyhound with one start for one win is drawn in front of her please explain that one.
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3237 Dogs 6 / Races 0 07 Sep 2014 22:09
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Graham,
You have to be more specific i.e. 1/1 was at which graded track ?? If it were a last start winner at the track it nominated and the other wasn't, it has preference. However, please tell without naming the dogs.
Cheers, Mark.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 08 Sep 2014 00:28
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I don't know whether people ring the grading department or not but I often do and yes I do get satisfaction this morning I asked about drawing 2 of my dogs in the same race and was told the grader does not see who trains the dogs and they do not see the fields until final.Maybe it's time to give these people some grace we don't know how things work down there and we don't know under what conditions the graders work under or rules they have to abide by they are workers and workers only.So maybe it's time to start looking at past deeds done by the unscrupulous people in the game because it's those very people that have made the rod for us to bare and it's those very people that make us and the very people that work as graders carry the load for their deeds.I can understand why the grading is done the way it is it is to keep people honest including their own workers so people like us have no kickback to say well the field was rigged bad luck but the deeds of some always stuff it up for others ...but only a very few
Robert Whitelaw Australia (Verified User) Posts 1977 Dogs 0 / Races 0 08 Sep 2014 01:26
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John McAlister wrote:
I don't know whether people ring the grading department or not but I often do and yes I do get satisfaction this morning I asked about drawing 2 of my dogs in the same race and was told the grader does not see who trains the dogs and they do not see the fields until final.Maybe it's time to give these people some grace we don't know how things work down there and we don't know under what conditions the graders work under or rules they have to abide by they are workers and workers only.So maybe it's time to start looking at past deeds done by the unscrupulous people in the game because it's those very people that have made the rod for us to bare and it's those very people that make us and the very people that work as graders carry the load for their deeds.I can understand why the grading is done the way it is it is to keep people honest including their own workers so people like us have no kickback to say well the field was rigged bad luck but the deeds of some always stuff it up for others ...but only a very few
John ask your self why do they have so many re-draws ?
Bill Deguara Australia (Verified User) Posts 314 Dogs 4 / Races 1 08 Sep 2014 02:09
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John McAlister wrote:
I don't know whether people ring the grading department or not but I often do and yes I do get satisfaction this morning I asked about drawing 2 of my dogs in the same race and was told the grader does not see who trains the dogs and they do not see the fields until final.Maybe it's time to give these people some grace we don't know how things work down there and we don't know under what conditions the graders work under or rules they have to abide by they are workers and workers only.So maybe it's time to start looking at past deeds done by the unscrupulous people in the game because it's those very people that have made the rod for us to bare and it's those very people that make us and the very people that work as graders carry the load for their deeds.I can understand why the grading is done the way it is it is to keep people honest including their own workers so people like us have no kickback to say well the field was rigged bad luck but the deeds of some always stuff it up for others ...but only a very few
John,Any grader that doesn't look at fields before they are graded should never be paid as a grader or in fact called a grader,This is only an excuse for graders to say when they stuff up and they very often do [Well the computer does the grading]What a lot of rot sorry mate but their excuses just don't make sense any more.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 08 Sep 2014 03:12
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Bill it is the times of computerisation where things are suppose to made quicker and as I have been told by the Stewards and the Graders they don't get to see who the trainer of the dogs are and to me this helps eliminate corruption which is good.I asked had my dogs been drawn to race and the guy said he didn't know because he doesn't get to see the fields till final which is fine by me.We must remember though that what happened over the years with ring-ins fields being fixed etc something had to be done and by the looks it has been.I don't have a problem ringing the graders and asking the WHY question and I have always had an answer,i'ts like a dog I have here that has to trial because he hasn't raced for over 8 months there is no problem with that,the same goes for a dog that I had that never raced for 28 days neat lucky for me he scraped in under the 1kg if not he would've been a late scratching and I would have done 100 bucks because I counted wrong. I just think people should try to find out just what a grader actually does and their input into how the fields are selected we know we have an order of entry we know they don't know the trainers of the dogs we know times don't come into it nor the number of races that they win if they are 5th grade ...maybe it's time to get the full gist of how they grade from when they receive a nom to when it becomes a Final Field but to denigrate the graders is a little tough for they are only working for and doing a job the way GRNSW wants that job done
Mark Donohue Australia (Verified User) Posts 3237 Dogs 6 / Races 0 08 Sep 2014 04:30
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John,
It's called the Grading Policy....and the lottery....lol.
Ian Rose Australia (Verified User) Posts 290 Dogs 4 / Races 0 08 Sep 2014 05:40
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Just a question, who is responsible for supplying a handler when they draw your dogs in the same race.
Bill it is the times of computerisation where things are suppose to made quicker and as I have been told by the Stewards and the Graders they don't get to see who the trainer of the dogs are and to me this helps eliminate corruption which is good.I asked had my dogs been drawn to race and the guy said he didn't know because he doesn't get to see the fields till final which is fine by me.We must remember though that what happened over the years with ring-ins fields being fixed etc something had to be done and by the looks it has been.I don't have a problem ringing the graders and asking the WHY question and I have always had an answer,i'ts like a dog I have here that has to trial because he hasn't raced for over 8 months there is no problem with that,the same goes for a dog that I had that never raced for 28 days neat lucky for me he scraped in under the 1kg if not he would've been a late scratching and I would have done 100 bucks because I counted wrong. I just think people should try to find out just what a grader actually does and their input into how the fields are selected we know we have an order of entry we know they don't know the trainers of the dogs we know times don't come into it nor the number of races that they win if they are 5th grade ...maybe it's time to get the full gist of how they grade from when they receive a nom to when it becomes a Final Field but to denigrate the graders is a little tough for they are only working for and doing a job the way GRNSW wants that job done
What I do know is they must see the trainers because the names are on the order of choice sheets that they send the clubs.I do not know their procedure but in my opinion,you can not grade dogs with out form[as in a nom form]and this is what they do.Then it seems they just go down the list of dogs,putting them into races.The way it is done seems very complicated as is the ridiculous grading system.I think the grading system has been made so complicated,that is why there are so many errors.
I am not sure Ian and it does not happen to me much.BUT one thing I do know if it happened to me and I had to get a handler for my dog and it happened to get swabbed for one reason or another,there is no way I would sign the swab ticket.
Robert Whitelaw Australia (Verified User) Posts 1977 Dogs 0 / Races 0 08 Sep 2014 06:06
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John McAlister wrote:
Bill it is the times of computerisation where things are suppose to made quicker and as I have been told by the Stewards and the Graders they don't get to see who the trainer of the dogs are and to me this helps eliminate corruption which is good.I asked had my dogs been drawn to race and the guy said he didn't know because he doesn't get to see the fields till final which is fine by me.We must remember though that what happened over the years with ring-ins fields being fixed etc something had to be done and by the looks it has been.I don't have a problem ringing the graders and asking the WHY question and I have always had an answer,i'ts like a dog I have here that has to trial because he hasn't raced for over 8 months there is no problem with that,the same goes for a dog that I had that never raced for 28 days neat lucky for me he scraped in under the 1kg if not he would've been a late scratching and I would have done 100 bucks because I counted wrong. I just think people should try to find out just what a grader actually does and their input into how the fields are selected we know we have an order of entry we know they don't know the trainers of the dogs we know times don't come into it nor the number of races that they win if they are 5th grade ...maybe it's time to get the full gist of how they grade from when they receive a nom to when it becomes a Final Field but to denigrate the graders is a little tough for they are only working for and doing a job the way GRNSW wants that job done
John they call it bullsh*tin ? and they are good at it !
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 08 Sep 2014 07:22
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Has anyone seen what happens after a dog is nommed ..I wouldn't have a clue personally
Do you have questions about greyhound racing?
