The Greyhound-Data Forum has been created to act as a platform for greyhound enthusiasts to share information on this magnificent animal called a greyhound.
Greyhound-Data reserve the right to remove any post that is off topic, advertisements or opinions they consider to be offensive.
If you answer then please try to stay on topic. It's absolutely okay to answer in a broader scope but don't hijack posts by switching to something off topic.
In case you see an insulting post: DO NOT REPLY TO IT!
Use the report button to inform the moderators so that we can delete it.
Greyhound handicapping site Greybase has rated the American tracks in this order with Power Ratings from 1 through 10 ...10 being the highest. I have also added the points value at the tracks that I know .. remembering that they are subject to change so I stand to be corrected in some instances. The two Iowa based tracks Bluffs and Dubuque, pay double to Iowa bred dogs. Grade A's (and Grade AA's) at most tracks earn around 8 points a win. As you can see Southland pays very well and you can understand why anyone with the right type of greyhound is keen to send them there .. and also why most of the top Southland dogs don't bother or need to travel. 10 Southland - pays around $280 per point 10 Bluffs Run - pays around $90 per point* 10 Wheeling Downs - pays around $100 per point 9 Derby Lane - pays around $70 per point 8 Dubuque - pays around $90 per point* 8 Flagler 8 Hollywood (Mardi Gras) 8 Tri-State - pays around $70 per point 7 Orange Park (Jacksonville) - pays around $50 per point 7 Palm Beach - pays around $50 per point 6 Naples-Ft Myers 6 Sarasota 5 Gulf Greyhound - pays around $60 per point 5 Birmingham 4 Sanford-Orlando 4 Daytona 3 Tucson 3 Caliente 3 Mobile
Geoff, I take it that the owner of a dog can select any track to race at as long as the track/kennel wants the dog? In other words, the owners of the best dogs want their dogs to race at the best paying tracks?
Is this always the case or are there some owners that don't require their dogs to race at the best paying tracks? Some might want their dogs to race local to them to watch them race live?
Graeme .. most of the people I talk to are on the lookout for a 'Southland dog' and if they get one good enough and they don't have booking there, they enter into a lease arrangement with someone who has. I would imagine there would be others who want to race locally but then I think that most of the breeders/owners don't live that close to the tracks and would only see them race via the internet anyway .. so not sure how much of a factor that is
So if a dog starts out at one track under a contract can the owner break that contract and send his dog to another track or is it that once the contract is in place you can only watch your dogs career unfold with no control over your dog ?
Dick Ciampa USA (Team Member) Posts 798 Dogs 15458 / Races 3395 29 Sep 2013 13:40
(0)
(0)
Unless you have an agreement with the kennel that after say 20 races you can move the dog, then he is with the kennel for life. However, if the dog is doing poorly at the track the kennel owner will ask you to move him. This is actually good for both sides because the kennel isn't making any money and neither is the owner. So moving him to an easier track benefits both.
The list by Greybase is a little misleading. While the point numbers he put on there is correct for the month he posted the list, the two West Virginia tracks, Wheeling and Tri State, will see their points go up significantly around the middle to end of October.
Starting July 1st the two horse track and two dog tracks have to contribute 11 million dollars to the state workman's compensation fund. Once the 11 million is taken care of the points will go back to around 175 to 200 for Wheeling and maybe 110 to 120 for Tri State. Plus there is additional monies for WV bred dogs that is only available for WV residents.
The track at Gulf, which is in Texas, has a TX bred program and is available to anyone. The dog has to be bred in Texas and raised there for 6 months. You can then move him if you want and if he runs at Gulf you will get Texas bred money for his wins.
Southland also has an Arkansas bred program, but like WV you have to be a resident.
The Iowa bred program you don't have to be a resident, but like all the programs, the dog has to be bred and raised there.
So I'm guessin that at the minute the best dogs race at Southland as that's where the best money's at. How long has this been the case (best money at Southland)?
2nd part of my question.... are those tracks listed by Geoff the only US tracks that remain?
Dick Ciampa USA (Team Member) Posts 798 Dogs 15458 / Races 3395 29 Sep 2013 21:00
(0)
(0)
Kieran,
As long as your capable of going the extra distance since their sprint course is 583 yards, 533 meters, and can handle the little bit deeper surface that SL has then you would send him there. If he is more a speed dog looking for a harder surface then you would probably send him to Bluffs Run or Wheeling.
Those aren't all the track, but most of them. Pensacola, Ebro and Melbourne are still running, all in Florida.
Too bad Greybase didn't include a list of how well the dogs from the various top tracks have done when they went elsewhere to race in open stakes. The Southland dogs, in particular, have not exactly covered themselves in glory anywhere. Whereas Kiowa Producer from Wheeling, went to Florida and won the Hollywood World Classic (open to any greyhound in the world), and then to Southland, winning 2 of 3 in-house stakes there(open to only dogs on the grounds at Southland).
If the current lot of dogs at Southland are the be all and end all of US racing, we have a problem, and you Irish and Aussie stud handlers have a huge opportunity.
Surely if a dog was able to break a track record at any of the Top 5 tracks in the US it would be highly recognized
10 Southland - pays around $280 per point 10 Bluffs Run - pays around $90 per point* 10 Wheeling Downs - pays around $100 per point 9 Derby Lane - pays around $70 per point 8 Dubuque - pays around $90 per point*
Sandro, we in the US have never placed as much emphasis on track records as do you in AUS or the folks in IRE. Our tracks are like quicksand compared to yours, and they are highly variable, seasonally, and weather-wise, day to day.
Any dog who can compete successfully in top grade at any one of those casino tracks is, by definition, a fine greyhound. I have commented several times on our American Greyhounds forum, that I don't think much of the current crop of greyhounds in the US at all, and that I think Southland is highly over-rated. There are good years and bad years for greyhound racing populations, as you know. I just don't think we're in a particularly good flow mode right now in the USA.
Here in the US, sires become flavor of the month by virtue of one or two precocious offspring having performed well at the auctions in Abilene, for unraced saplings, upon which a hugely disproportionate importance is placed. This is great for the big-moneyed studmasters and for the mega-breeders, who sell pups and who book females for their sires. But it has led to the lionization of some sires whose main attributes and contributions have been only precocity and precocious speed.
Now, our greyhounds are faster than ever, but for shorter distances, and significantly shorter racing careers. I have never seen more phony, cheap speed among greyhounds in what are thought to be the elite racing echelons, than I see today. It is sad enough that the casino tracks put on a form of racing that can only be analogous with fast food restaurants---I call it "McRacing"---done only to satisfy the law which allows casinos at the track, as long as there is a stipulated amount of racing. But the lemming-like, copycat breedings are starting to have their effect on the racing populations, as perfectly good sires are overlooked in favor of sires standing with operations which breed a dozen top females to their latest prospect, in hopes of getting that one individual who raises some eyebrows and loosens some wallets at the auction, and brings out the copycats. Perhaps it is a good business model, but I'm not sure it is a the ultimate in breed custodianship.
Track records anywhere are relative to the track that they race on, aren't they? For example, here in Australia, Angle Park was racing very slow about 12 months ago, but has sped up. So has Wentworth Park over the last 2 years.
I don't think the dogs have got that much better, but in the end, the dogs racing on these tracks are all relative to each other, but not relative to the group that were racing when the track was slow.
Why do you say that Southland is highly over-rated when it clearly pays more per point than any other track?
Is it that closed a shop?
Our closest comparison would be the city tracks in Victoria. Most people with elite dogs in Australia want to race in Melbourne.
Track Records are rarely broken, but it s the fiercest competition and not the place for feint-hearted dogs.
Surely, with the money on offer at Southalnd, it would be a similar analogy. The kennel owners would be looking for ultra-competitive dogs to race there. I couldn't see them looking for inferior dogs.
Sandro...our racing here is done by contracting kennels. The trainers are not independent contractors. The "kennel" is granted a contract or as we call it, a "booking" to race at a track, and agrees to provide a stipulated number of greyhounds to support the racing programs, which is called an active list. This contract booking system is a panacea to huge breeding operations, and was the death knell to many local breeders in many areas. It discourages competition. For example, in my own state of MA, when there was racing, had I wanted to race my own greyhounds at the local Taunton track, I could not race them under my own brand--even though I am a resident and taxpayer in the state. I would be forced to lease my dogs to a contracted kennel, more than likely with an inferior trainer, and to lose control of them--as well as settle for about 1/3 of their winnings (the split being about 1/3 to cover costs, 1/3 for the kennel, and 1/3 for me). This is an appalling system. But this is the system in the US, everywhere. Geared to perpetuate the chosen few, and to obliterate the local, grassroots breeder. The booking contract is dangled like a sword of Damocles over the heads of those who have them, by the tracks, to stifle dissent and toexert total control. It discourages local and small breeders, who are community based and who develop local business networks, and are thus a source of some local and state political influence--because politicians are answerable to them and their business networks, but not necessarily to out of state kennels with booking contracts. This is the main reason greyhound racing is in such a drastic state here in the US. Local breeding--and thus strong racing grassroots, have been dismempowered.
I say Southland is overrated, because the Southland dogs, in recent years, when they have traveled to other venues to contest OPEN stakes races, against other open stakes racers from other tracks, have not distinguished themselves. The OPEN stakes race, in the US, and one's ability to compete well in them, has been our traditional measuring stick for greyhound greatness---not track records. Which is not to say that track records aren't important, but they're not THAT important here. I trained a grade C marathoner who held the track record at Wonderland in Revere(top track at the time) for a number of years. That tells me a lot about track records.
Sandro...our racing here is done by contracting kennels. The trainers are not independent contractors. The "kennel" is granted a contract or as we call it, a "booking" to race at a track, and agrees to provide a stipulated number of greyhounds to support the racing programs, which is called an active list. This contract booking system is a panacea to huge breeding operations, and was the death knell to many local breeders in many areas. It discourages competition. For example, in my own state of MA, when there was racing, had I wanted to race my own greyhounds at the local Taunton track, I could not race them under my own brand--even though I am a resident and taxpayer in the state. I would be forced to lease my dogs to a contracted kennel, more than likely with an inferior trainer, and to lose control of them--as well as settle for about 1/3 of their winnings (the split being about 1/3 to cover costs, 1/3 for the kennel, and 1/3 for me). This is an appalling system. But this is the system in the US, everywhere. Geared to perpetuate the chosen few, and to obliterate the local, grassroots breeder. The booking contract is dangled like a sword of Damocles over the heads of those who have them, by the tracks, to stifle dissent and toexert total control. It discourages local and small breeders, who are community based and who develop local business networks, and are thus a source of some local and state political influence--because politicians are answerable to them and their business networks, but not necessarily to out of state kennels with booking contracts. This is the main reason greyhound racing is in such a drastic state here in the US. Local breeding--and thus strong racing grassroots, have been dismempowered.
I say Southland is overrated, because the Southland dogs, in recent years, when they have traveled to other venues to contest OPEN stakes races, against other open stakes racers from other tracks, have not distinguished themselves. The OPEN stakes race, in the US, and one's ability to compete well in them, has been our traditional measuring stick for greyhound greatness---not track records. Which is not to say that track records aren't important, but they're not THAT important here. I trained a grade C marathoner who held the track record at Wonderland in Revere(top track at the time) for a number of years. That tells me a lot about track records.
Hi Denis
I agree with a lot of what you say in regards to the disintegration of local, grass roots breeders in the US due to the racing system. Less breeders, less kennels, more control.
we haven't seen that here....YET
However, the pool of breeders here seem to be getting smaller each year. It seems to be the cost of breeding and a poor pup market return that are the drivers here.
I hope we never get to the US system in this country. It seems unlikely due to the way our betting agencies are forced to pay a share of their turnovcer/profits to the sport.
Also clubs aren't linked to casino's and aren't privately owned. They are mainly not for profit associations.
Re: Southland Dogs not performing at the Stakes meetings can you give us some examples of their top rated dogs over the last couple of years, where you have seen this?
Sandro, from here is appears that the Australian people are light years ahead of everyone else when it comes to racing done with a high degree of professionalism.
A perusal of the major open stakes winners here in the US over the past several years will reveal that not one of them was a Southland-based dog. I can't recall the last time a dog from Southland was campaigned in open stakes races and won one of them. However, I don't have the complete list of entries for any of those races to tell you exactly which dogs competed in them, don't have the time or resources to go back and look them all up if that info is even out there--nor do I wish to single out one or two of them for ridicule. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong here, and tell us the name(s)of Southland dogs who have done something notable, recently, in an open stakes, but I'm fairly certain I'm not. As I mentioned in the other thread, Kiowa Producer went from Wheeling to the open stakes in Hollywood (which he won) and then to Southland, where he showed his hindquarters twice to the best at Southland in their in-house stakes races.
Crossing the finish line on top--just as he did in the World Classic at Mardi Gras earlier in the year--to capture the Southland Derby is Kiowa Producer.
More than likely, the vast majority of people have heard the old adage third times the charm. In the case of Randy Finegan and the Magic City Kennel, those four words never rang more true.
In the 2011 Southland Derby, Radio Spirit ran second to the All-American Shanett.
Last season, after winning the Spring Futurity with Nitro Stubby, the young star ran a respectable runner-up once again to the superstar known as Bella Infrared.
When you race at a place like Southland, especially over the past couple of years, the chances of racing against All- Americans in the finals of these stakes are a given, stated Finegan.
We just happened to have run into one of the best females to have ever raced here in Shanett and one of the best ever to have raced period in Bella Infrared.
While talent plays a part in any stakes championship, luck also plays a role. So also it seems fate plays a part as well. Of the eight finalists that night in the Derby, Randy Finegan almost housed a different dog in his kennel than Kiowa Producer. Sitting right next to his entry in the seven post was U Too Pure Silk. We had bid all the way up to forty thousand dollars on that fine greyhound and the winning bid was $41,000, stated Finegan. Just a thousand dollars ended up being the difference and who knows how this thing turns out.
Jack Sherck bought half interest in Kiowa Producer (Dragon Fire x Kay V Sweet Kay) before the World Classic earlier this year. Along with Smith Greyhounds, the talented pup who just turned two years old in April racked up six wins in just nine starts, including a six-length romp in the championship race of the World Classic as the betting favorite.
The change in venue and track surface from the southern Florida venue to the classic oval in West Memphis didnt seem to be an issue for this dark brindled male.
He immediately won his first official schooling race in mid-March and followed that up with winning his first A and AA race in back to back fashion.
Winning would become the normal for him as he won 11 of 17 starts heading into the championship race of the Derby at Southland Park.
Even with all the accolades though, plus securing the eight post in the championship race, an easy victory was far from a sure thing.
A large entourage headed by Magic City Kennel owner Randy Fineganand his family, accompanied by trainer Cheryl Warrender and her twodaughters, celebrated Kiowa Producers Southland Derby victory in thetrophy presentation at the finish line. Holding the glass trophy for thepresentation is Shane Bolender, Southlands director of racing.
Mega Velocity (David Blair Kennel) drew his coveted one box. The rail loving fawn male won three of the four qualifying rounds, including one round from this exact same box. Next to him was the stakes race veteran Oshkosh Grace (Robert Thorne, LLC). Tagged as one of the best, hard running females to race at Southland, she won two rounds and narrowly missed winning a third. Lester Raines Kennel had a pair of littermates make the finals in RS Libbys Choice in the white blanket and RS Libbys Dream in the yellow. Combined they missed the pay sheet only once and tallied a couple of qualifying victories. WWs Spark Gap (Charter Kennel, Inc.) was the second entry for trainer Terry Green. Invading from Wheeling Island, he black male was perfect in the quiniela until the semi-finals where he ran into issues. FF Code Red (Robert Thorne, LLC) was 11 of 12 on the paysheet for the season since shipping in from Mardis Gras sitting in the difficult five post. U Too Pure Silk (Charter Kennel, Inc.) was the only greyhound in the field coming into the championship with three straight victories, including a 7 length pull away romp in the semi-finals.
I thought (Producer) sat well in the eight box, said Finegan. He certainly could use his eight box in that race. I felt that if he could just outrush the #7 (U Too Pure Silk) to the turn and clear the #1 (Mega Velocity) he would be sitting in good shape.
Kiowa Producer after his Southland Derby win. (Photos by RachelHogue)
Sitting in good shape turned out to be an understatement. When the box opened for the championship race, Kiowa Producer didnt really need to outrush U Too Pure Silk to the turn after all. He used a sharp break to pass him early as he maneuvered his way to the inside portion of the racetrack. That quick break was reminiscent of the semi-finals race where he broke sharply from this exact same post position. Producer found himself in the lead, albeit by just a little more than a length going into the first turn.
In the first turn, Producer was pressed on the inside by Mega Velocity and on his right side by U Too Pure Silk. WWs Spark Gap hugged the rail and was poised to make up ground on the inside. FF Code Red was also in the mix, but was finding himself increasingly stuck in the traffic of the race. This would be the last time in the race so many greyhounds were that close to Kiowa Producer.
Entering the backstretch, both Mega Velocity and U Too Purse Silk bumped into each other which slowed them enough to allow Producer to add a length to his lead. WWs Spark Gap clung to the rail and sling shot himself into second place while FF Code Red shifted gears mid-track and was laying in fourth place. These four greyhounds were the only ones within striking distance, albeit now almost four lengths behind him.
The far turn didnt hold much change for anyone in the race. Kiowa Producer still maintained that nearly four length lead. WWs Spark Gap still was glued to the inside part of the track and appeared to have enough stamina to make a final run. U Too Pure Silk was relegated to third and FF Code Red had overtaken Mega Velocity for fourth position. All that was left, was the homestretch run.
That final stretch proved to be a two greyhound race. Kiowa Producer, while still in the lead, saw the distance shrink to just over two lengths. WWs Spark Gap was driving on her outside right hip, but didnt get quite enough help as Producer clung to the rail and didnt give up valuable lengths in staying to the inside. As they crossed the photo finish lights, the Magic City kennel was a bridesmaid no longer as it came to the Southland Derby. Kiowa Producer produced the first Derby Stakes victory for Magic City at Southland by 1 lengths ahead of Charter Kennels longshot WWs Spark Gap. Charter also rounded out the trifecta with their other, more heavily favored entry, U Too Pure Silk who finished nearly ten lengths back. RS Libbys Choice came out of nowhere to claim fourth.
Even though Kiowa Producer was pegged as a close second favorite in the race at just over 2 to 1 odds, with a prime post position and obvious talent, kennel owner Randy Finegan still understood how luck still played a part in it. When you start with 96 entries, with many of them being high quality greyhounds, just making the finals is tough, stated Finegan. Then, you get to the finals and you face four greyhounds ranked in the Top 25 of the United Greyhound Racing poll, you appreciate winning the race even more.
The trophy and blanket presentation was barely over when the inevitable question was asked about what is the next for Kiowa Producer. A little rest, stated Randy.
People in Australia and Ireland were trying to buy him before Jack bought half interest in him. There are some out there that believe he is the best in the world right now, he continued. I dont know that you have to be the best in the world or even the country to win a stakes race, you just have to be the best that night.
Kiowa Producer fit the role of being the best that Saturday evening in West Memphis, Arkansas. The rest of the script is still open and being written as we speak. Congratulations go out to all of Kiowa Producers connections.
No Sandro...Producer is a Wheeling greyhound who went to Hollywood (Mardi Gras) and won the World Classic, and then to Southland. Now he might have been placed on a Southland roster (or even run there once or twice) prior to the World Classic so he could qualify at Southland later, but he didn't actually race there until after the World Classic. He was a Wheeling dog in my eyes.
Do you have questions about greyhound racing?
