Fair Enough Denis

But why would Finnegan say this:

When you race at a place like Southland, especially over the past couple of years, the chances of racing against All- Americans in the finals of these stakes are a given, stated Finegan."

Does he not respect the overall class of the Southland dogs then?

Is it fair to say that the better dogs aspire to get to Southland, where the better prizemoney per point is, regardless of where they started their careers? Like we in Australia aspire to get a dog good enough to go to Melbourne?

Well I don't really know what to make of that Dennis

First Southland is no good because they can't produce a stakes dog, but every top dog in theUS seems to race there because of the top stake money, then the AA's are biased but not worthless and still an honour........very confusing??

How does someone from this side of the world work out what is good and what isn't without belief in these parameters to go by?

Basically you are saying, take notice of the performances in Open Stakes Races in the US to judge a dog, regardless of the track it usually races at and regardless of the All American rankings. Am I reading you right?

Just on SS Jeno.....with all of those deeds under his belt, surely he must have been in the top 2 of the track he raced at. What track did he race at? Were there 2 better dogs racing at that track than him throughout the year?

My statement was that Southland is overrated. Period. I see no evidence that the competition is any tougher or more elite at Southland than it is at Bluffs or Wheeling, yet to read the gushing on American Forums, you'd think that the Bluffs didn't even exist, and that Wheeling dogs had suddenly become incapable of competing with great dogs from other tracks. There are talented, capable greyhounds at just about every track. Right now the HYPE is about Southland. Living up to the hype is another story.

And SS Jeno was clearly the best 660 yard dog in the USA during his American Derby winning season. Undefeated at that distance. Why he was overlooked by the selectors is unknown to me. There were always great greyhounds at Taunton, Raynham and Revere, the tracks in Massachusetts, who were stalwart open stakes campaigners, but I don't recall who Taunton nominated that year.

And Sandro---the way you tell a great greyhound from a greyhound is with your eyes.

"In years past despite records you judged greyhounds on how they performed in open stakes races, now with very few open stakes races
it would have to be Kiowa Producer winning the Hollywood World Classic with 10 Southland greyhounds in the field and only 1 making the final..."

Guess I'm not the only one who sees it that way.

Dennis

No baiting. Just trying to understand the logic you are employing.

You have explained it well now.

I agree....your eyes are the best judge

I asked a question a while back on what type of dogs posses what type of ability (speed or strength) and geoff Collins said that southland's dogs were generally stronger dogs, than say Mardi Gras which a dog with more early pace or speed dogs. (Pretty sure it was Mardi Gras he said)

It's been an interesting read on your take on tracks and ability of dogs to do it at multiple tracks examples of kiowa mon many, lonesome cry I'm sure there are more that have been exceptional producers, showed what you are saying about doing it else where just not at the one track.

Everyone knows why this thread popes up from the bickering and comparisons about 2 dogs in particular and as people thoughts stated track and kennel comparisons, which to be honest apart from one post being completely of topic (not getting deleted mind you in contradiction to past occasions on other threads) this thread has been informative to a degree.

I noted certain stud dogs even here in australia have not made it to our top track but at stud seem to have an extended ability over other so called "superior performers" and im sure that's no different in America.

My interest and question is In past years what stud dog's have produced the goods in comparison to ability shown amongst peers at the time, for interest sake.

The main question I need answered in relation to American stud dogs is what traits do they posses that if I put them to one of my brood bitches, because this is not to dissimilar to the questions we ask in australia of our stud dogs (stayers v 500m+ sprinters v speedy squids of 450 or less - temperament reserved, over the top, hard chaser or non chaser and even fighter) and these are the hardest questions to get answers to because what stud master or owners going to be totally honest and say "my dog had freakish ability would chase through but was a nutter or injury prone or struggled to get 500 or a bit of a non chaser etc."

The reality of the stud dog's on offer at the present is between.

Kinloch brae
lonesome cry
yahoo omar
paddy whacker
blazin wild fire
Afleet alex
bella infared
sh avatar (sometime in the future)

I have no flaming idea what I'm looking at or why or if I'm right or wrong but Im wanting to outcross like everyone else in the hope of having a brood bitch to go on with, I have settled on a few of interest.

Lonesome cry (because he is well proven)
kinloch brae (his blood lines and early speed amd he is well proven)
paddywhacker (his lines and his abiliy)
afleet alex (if I was to use him he out of the available intensifies molotov in one particular bitch I have and im curious what the result of that would be and he is semi proven)
bella infared (because of strange Chariot and his sire kiowa mon many and his race record and videos)

This is how I look at the current stud dogs in America and the hope that they bring strength to our aussie lines.

What dogs the best dog because of what track it raced at is not something I'd look at, yet like in australia if one did it over multiple tracks that may sway me either way as I can't use them all.

That's the way I see it and maybe that's the best way I will have success by removing the element of thinking i have an idea and corrupting a pure thought process through ego getting in the road.

That's how I see it all anyway.

Be interested to hear paul wheelers veiw on the matter and how his thought process was in selecting American lines for his and what brought him to that conclusion information wise seeming he has been one of the most successful in australia to do this.

Strange how quickly some forget.

And aren't there plenty of people on the Forum that tell us race performance / traits are not always a true guide as to what attributes get "passed on"? Surely with many of the sires mentioned on here already having offspring, shouldn't we be focussing more on that?

Geoff did not lie to you. Southland is a large, galloping track, and the "sprint" distance there is 583 yards. It is a track that has, over the years, served "tweeners" quite well here in the US. A "tweener" is what we call a greyhound who is not quite best served by either our standard 550 yard or 660 yard distances, which comprise the overwhelming majority of all races at nearly all tracks in the US. This is not to suggest that every dog at Southland is a "tweener", only that the track is not for the faint of heart.

As you have noted, both Lonesome Cry and Kinloch Brae are well-known quantities. Lonesome Cry is particularly interesting because he has had so much success crossing with Molotov daughters and grand-daughters. Now this is not all that unusual, because Molotov daughters, as a group, were phenomenal,historical producers. But in his case, his affinity for Molotov is disproportionate--in a good way. That's useful, factual information.

Every one of the sires you mentioned, as a track racer, was of the very highest echelon here in the US. They could all win at stakes level (our highest) at 550 yards (503m), or at Southland's extended "sprint" distance.

Yahoo Omar, Blazin Wildfire and Paddy Whacker could carry their speed for 6 turns and 660 yards (603m), and Paddy Whacker, for 770 yards (703m) at stakes level.

Yahoo Omar was the most well-traveled of them as a racer and his record speaks for itself as to his abilities. He is also the one with, imo, the most arcane bloodline, via Visa Trip, his damsire. Arcane does not mean anything negative, only that it is unusual today in the US.

All of the dogs you mentioned, Sean, were by anyone's standard, extremely game and hard trying racers. You would have to make up your own mind as to which of the known quantities are reliably transmitting those qualities to offspring. Of the unknown quantities, I will say this---I have never seen a greyhound overcome more adversity with any more tenacity and gumption than Blazin Wildfire, and I am his unabashed fan because I happen to know a little something about the ordeals he overcame (which were all induced and were not inherent).

I am loathe to say much more about any of them, for fear of appearing to prefer one or several over the others, which in any case I do, but which is simply one man's opinion.

I have no stake in any of this, except as a fan of greyhounds and racing, and as a former trainer who enjoys watching the ebb and flow of bloodlines, and deconstructing the complexities of greyhound stride and locomotion. In that case, I am fascinated with Paddy Whacker, whose raw physical abilities and capacities (and score on the "eyeball test") were simply off the charts.

To sum it up, there are no lemons in the basket, as far as I know.

Just wondering if they have Racing Infractions in the States ie: Fail to Chase , Head Turning etc.

If they do could you list what they are please. Also, are they National standard or differ from State to State.

Thank You

Didn't hurt Solve the Puzzle...

I do appreciate your advice as well john and I do see your point. With the stud ranks currently in a transitional phase I see this is the perfect time for the amateur to be outcrossing if they intend to as there is just the same risk in going to unproven aussie sires or sires that only provide one small piece of the puzzle thus far.

Truthfully the only two dogs who I'd be inspired to use beyond wheres pedro and collsion is magic sprite and swift fancy.

Barcia bale and dyna tron and zulu zues are others I'm keen to see throw as well as I'd like to use them at some stage. I've risked aussie sires for poor results and learned bucket loads in the process and im sure the risks are exactly the same with imports, yet something tells me your not going to achieve the improving of your own lines by reading a book and waiting, for me it's about learning in application as there is no failure only wisdom and learning.

All info about tracks and dogs traits in the USA is appreciated and the more information the better.

Indeed we do have infractions here. Dogs receive "tickets" for infractions, and usually have to school back to the judges' satisfaction before being allowed to race again. The comments are usually:

Interfered--when a dog turns his head or his body to deliberately impede or savage another.

Bore In/Bore Out--when a dog deliberately alters his line to contact and drive another dog off their line.

Raced Recklessly--exactly what it suggests

Refused---when a dog declines to break from the trap

Quit--when a dog stops chasing, for no apparent reason

Checked/Slowed, Turn/Stretch--when a dog raises his head and slows without contact, entering or exiting a turn, or on a straightaway.

Good point john

Sorry I neglected to address this point. The kennels who run at Southland know the type of dog it takes to succeed there. Either they breed them themselves, or purchase them at auction or otherwise, or try to attract them from other kennels, or breeders. Owners and breeders who have leased dogs to kennels who don't race at Southland are stuck with that arrangement---that's how we do things here. Southland is not for every dog. So there are lots of excellent dogs at Wheeling, Bluffs, Tri State, Dubuque, Derby Lane, Palm Beach and throughout Florida, who would not likely thrive on the Southland oval---because it is unique. And there are some who might revel in it---Paddy Whacker comes to mind---but he was leased to a kennel that ran elsewhere, and a deal is a deal.

It seems as if overnight here, we have gone to lusting for dogs to run at Wheeling, to hoping for dogs who can run at Southland. When all along, we should have been trying to breed dogs who had the versatility and skills to race anywhere.

My agender is to breed a good litter to a good prospect at a good price and people may think that because of this I favour Paddy Whacker but I seen his race videos and commended on him long before he came to Australia as did others on here.

I also know how much $ dogs have been marketed to us here from overseas to us for many years at huge mark ups and now that there is some change and stud dog owners have decided to branch out that all people involved have decided to come out fighting and brand the other as having a self interest in a stud dog.

Alot on here are observers and can and will make a opinion but it truths was to be typed in black and white and mean "TRUTH" it would be deleted In a split sec especially after I've typed it :)

If everyone looked at each new stud dog and not who comments on it good or bad and dosent make a decision based on it being good because it's service fee is this or its been used that many times you would find some dogs miles above others on ability without the negatives and pump ups.

I thought I would chime in here, as it seems my dog is carrying some of that smell. I see many post about certain dogs that go on for many pages and don't stink like this. You will not find myself posting negative comments on any ones dogs, as it would never be my place, and how could I, as I could not know enough about the dog. I feel I have offered my own personal opinions on my dog, and left the door open to anyone that would care to follow up with me, as I know him the best. I raised him, and I trained him, and worked him back to continue his career. I don't think I have gave anyone in the greyhound business any reason to doubt anything I would tell you, about him.
First off, as a stud owner, which I have not had much experience at, as he is my one and only stud. I would like to add, that if some think that adding a stud, to your female, is a guarantee, to get a winner, or a great dog, some might become very disappointed. LOL
All the dogs that have been mentioned here are dogs that I would surly consider to breed to.. if I had the right female. The big red dog from Southland will surly get breeding, and my guess get some very nice dogs. I hope to use him myself.
I am a very.... Very small breeder, in fact since the Whelping of Paddy Whacker in 2008, have only had 4 litters to hit the track, just don't know how to do it the numbers way. Any of you that know me, have probably seen pictures posted on different forms and F/B, as I am proud of my dogs, and probably work harder then anyone I know in the business at raising them. And let me tell you, I have my work cut out for me, raising them in Alberta Canada. Never mind the 6500 kms round trip to take them to Abilene, so they can go off to the race tracks in the USA.
In that 4 litters to hit the track, we have had a 2 Time 2nd team All American, track record breaker, 3 NGA Main Stake winners,2012 World Classic WINNER, and several top grade dogs, and the 4th litter is still breaking in. All 4 from unproven studs, as well all the females unproven females. I have been mocked on everyone of them when I did the breeding. Some telling me how foolish to even consider doing some of these breeding's, as I needed to go to a proven stud, especially if using a unproven female.
When we went to Heart Rumble, we were looking for a certain, kind of dog that could handle change, and could do more then one distance. He was multiple track record holder, and could even run hurdle races, I had been eyeing him up for some time before Ken even brought him over, as the girl we wanted to breed him to was lacking in what he had. I think it worked, as we got a track record breaker that could run multiple distance. The Next litter we did was to a Dog, called KIOWA MYTH, I really took a ribbing on this one, as not only unproven, but 1000.00, at that time , and still now,as that is a lot for a stud fee. We took the first vile. Kiowa Myth, went over to Ireland twice, and competed very well, in his last trip back from there, he come off the plane and headed to Wheeling, the very top track at that time. He competed , in what I recall weeks later, in one of Wheeling's top stake races, and although he took 2nd in the final, still broke the track record, along with the winner. My feeling was any dog that could go through all of that, was what my bitch needed,as even with my feeling that she was the fastest dog I ever raised, she was a bit squirrely, and needed some of the right blood to even her out. Mann, did we ever get some nice pups. One was the 2011 Feb, main stake winner, and would have took the gold cup, if they would have gone through with it. The Sister, was the only female in the 2012 World Classic final, and won it coming off the pace. Not only beating a stellar, field of dogs, but a 2 time record breaker, from SOUTHLAND, hmm, crazy hey .The third litter, was from a Orange park dog, TAKE IT OVER he was well known, and that's where we were wanting to send our dogs, as it was a booking that we could trust. We did get a Main Stake winner, but we feel the dogs went to compete at the tracks way to early, as they were babies, that had less then 6 times even out of the box, when they left our hands. The Next one was to our Dog Paddy Whacker, 2 big 80 lb boys, and 2 smaller girls. Unfortunately, one of the girls cramped up, and I did not want to push her, so she did not compete in the 2012 fall nationals, where her sister won a main stake, in 2 very nice rounds. Some of you Ozzi boys have seen her. The Boys were just too darn big to run that small speed track at the NGA.
I will say sorry now for writing this small novel about the accomplishments of these 4 litters in a row. But what I am getting at, is know your bitches, and feed them what they need, for where you want to run them. One stud does not fit them all. I will say, what my boy brings to the table, is a tenacious drive, a very well built confirmation, the fact he could run multiple distance and win, very good blood lines as his moms sister has produced one of the worlds best also , and he is standing in the flesh over in OZ.
I could go on for another hour to explain the USA race tracks, but have give everyone enough of my poor writing skills.LOL
But do know, that all though Southland is considered the top money track, not all the top , or best dogs will go there. Many keep their best at the tracks they have bookings at, as they need them, to compete against the other GOOD Dogs. Many also know, that the dog would never come back the same. There are many, many variable's to the USA tracks, that could take quite some time to go through.
Doug