These US dogs competed in Stakes races & not at Southland.

They were not heavily marked up in price and not used heavily

Why weren;t they used heavily? They were cheap and all carried desireable outcross blood like Molotov, Gable Dodge, HB's commander, Fortess, Oswald Cobblepot, K's Flak etc etc

Banker Hud

CLICK HERE
Damsire of Got a Moment, Melbourne Cup winner

Clappin Thunder

CLICK HERE
He raced in Stakes Races against some great dogs like Fuzzys Cannon, Cayman Went and WW Apple Jax

Fortified Rush

CLICK HERE
He raced in at Wheeling Downs in stakes races

Is the damsire of this gem CLICK HERE
and this great stayer who is currently at stud here and going to waste with few servings

CLICK HERE
Flying Stanley

CLICK HERE
Sire of Glen Gallon

On the other hand there has been imported frozen semen of the likes of Flying Penske, Kiowa Sweet Trey, EA's Itzaboy, Molotov, Craigie Whistler and these were expensive.

The same applied to the great proven Irish sires that were brought out i.e. Spiral Nikita, Larkhill Jo etc

Why? A plausible reason could be because they were top sires in their home country.

They probably deserved to be the price they were due to their scarcity here, reluctance of the local studmasters to release vials and charged thr earth, but mainly because of their proven great success as sires

The new imported sires, both from US & Ireland and UK, have no real proven high level siring ability and they have to start from scratch like all the other sires out here that they are competing with.

An edge has to be found to be able to secure the confidence of breeders from our population.

Probably also a plausible reason why their prices are lower? To attract some bitches.

This applies to all sires trying to make it, regardless of what track they raced at and where they come from.

You know and I know that most not all but most sires bought to Australia are marked right up like a new unraced sire that's been bought here from overseas by a Australian sire it's nearly laughable.
People can say advertising etc but you know what the owners sell them for and what we pay for them but you also know that the times are changing and only to benefit the breeders and stud dog owners and the middleman is feeling the pinch.

No of course not Johnathon LOL

I just singled out one of your comments and responded to it.

I just gave you examples of US dogs that were imported, raced in US Stakes races (as Denis has said that is the measuring stick), had attractive bloodlines, that weren't marked up to buggery and stood at reasonable fees and were largely ignored by our breeders, but have had an effect, albeit in some cases via broodbitches, on our breeding scene.

The ones that have been marked up, that I have mentioned, were already great sires in their own country.

That is the only point I am trying to make.

Maybe you can give me some examples of unproven sires brought out here that were marked right up?

It's the nature of breeders to pay more for well proven sires, regardless of what country they are from, what their racing record is or what track they raced at.

Top Honcho won the SA Derby (Angle Park not as highly regarded as say Sandown) and many other races there with brilliant early pace. No doubt the Irish saw something in his early pace & pedigree and off he went to Ireland. He started off at a relatively cheap fee and finally became one of their most in-demand, expensive & influential sires.

If he stayed here, he wouldn't have got a look in.

So when we look at US Greyhound tracks and their unique booking systems in retaining top class dogs at their track, it would seem that where they race, be it Southland, Wheeling etc has no difference.

I basically still agree with what Dennis says: You're eyes are the best judges.

Fair statement?

My oppinion is they all deserve a shot without recourse until their offspring show what they have to offer. But the naysayers allways try to influence before this fact and is one facet of the greyhound industry that is not a positive

James I think your correct as its not uncommon to see top dogs with a one third of each being Aussie, American and Irish.

It never dawned on me that many people who have adopted retired racing greyhounds, dont entirely understand how racing works.

Of course, it starts with the greyhounds themselves, and the people who breed them. Racing greyhounds are all registered with the National Greyhound Association, of which their breeders are members.

There are some breeders who keep and control very large colonies of breeding females and sires, and who raise hundreds of greyhounds each year. There are others who have much more modest operations, and there are others, still, for whom breeding is not the sole source of their income, and who may have second careers, apart from racing.

Some breeders have contracts to race at certain tracks, and breed mainly to supply their own racing enterprises. There are others who dont have racing enterprises, and who breed to lease their dogs to a racing kennel(s), which may or may not be a subsidiary of another breeding operation.

The typical leasing agreement is 35% to the kennel, 35% to the owner, with the rest kept by the kennel for training services, upkeep and veterinary costs. Owners do not pay a weekly or monthly fee to the kennels they race with.

Twice a year the NGA holds a competition for sapling greyhounds, who are almost ready to go to the racetrack and begin their careers--after which an auction takes place. People who are not breeders, as well as breeders, can bid on any greyhound they like, and if they are the highest bidder, they purchase that greyhound for themselves. They may have their own racing enterprise, or they might be an independent owner. It doesnt matter.

All racing greyhounds are owned by either a racing kennel, a group, or by individuals.

The racetracks do not own the greyhounds.

The racetracks simply contract kennels to supply them with greyhounds, and ordinarily provide housing space on premises, for which the kennel ordinarily pays to rent/utilities as part of the deal. When a kennel owner signs a contract to race at a track, he/she guarantees that they will keep an active listwhich is a mandated number of greyhounds, fit for racing at all times. Failure to sustain that active list can be cause for the track to revoke the kennels contract to race.

So the kennels are responsible for providing the greyhounds, and the tracks provide the kennel space, security and the racing venuethe racetrack itself.

It is the job of the racetrack management to actually manage the racetrack and the racetrack surface, as well as the lure, and whatever outbuildings there are for the dogs. The kennels have no access to the racetrack, other than to provide greyhounds to race on it. The racetrack management is also the entity who promotes and advertises what they offeror not.

The racetrack also handles all the money the public wagers on the races. Here in the US, we use the Pari-Mutuel system of wagering, where all wagered monies are pooled, and where the public bets against one another. The racetrack has no interest in whether you win or lose your bets, they simply handle the pools, sell the tickets, and pay out to those who hold winning tickets after the race is official. The more money that is wagered, the more money the tracks, kennels and states make.

The odds you see on the tote board, reflect what they call the takeout. They are not fixed, and they fluctuate as betting ensues. The takeout is a pre-deducted percentage of each dollar wagered, from which the track, the kennels and the state derive their income. The takeout is splitusually unevenlyamong the track, the state and the aggregate kennels, with the larger percentages ordinarily taken by the state and track.

The state is the regulatory authority. They inspect the kennels and the racetracks, via appointed Racing Commission or other Gaming Commission officials called judges, and the office of the state veterinarian--who usually consults with the track veterinarian on matters of greyhound well being. The racing judges have the right to fine and suspend, via commission hearings, for any alleged rule-breaking, either on the part of the tracks, their employees, the kennels, and their employees and associates, the latter of whom are those persons who own dogs which are leased to a kennel.

The greyhound trainers all work for the kennels. They are not track employees, and they are licensed by the state. The trainer of record--the one listed in the racing program--is the legal sole insurer of the dogs in his kennel. Which simply means he is the responsible party for seeing to it that all rules, welfare protocols, environmental mandates and procedures are followed, to a T.

The Racing Secretary is employed by the track, and he is the person who cards the racing performances, draws up the races, and insures the impartiality of competition, and the drawing of post-positions.

The track General Manager and/or Director of Racing is the person who sets the agenda at the racetrack, and who can ultimately exert great influence over which kennels will have their contracts renewed, which might be told to move on, and which kennels might replace them.

copyright, 2014
Dennis McKeon

Its been a Gable Dodge two-month stretch, where descendants of Harlyn Goebels immortal Hall Of Famer shined especially bright.
First to excel was DS Libra, who on Apr. 5 captured the Bluffs Run $60,000 Team Survivor stake. Owned by Katherine D. Steel of Elliott, IA, and bred by David Sullivan, now of Hartford, Ar., DS Libra is actually linebred in the third generation to Gable Dodge. An October 2011 fawn daughter of BDs Grayson-DS Mariah, Libra had a sparkling 9-6-0-1 mark in her first 18 starts at Bluffs this year. She won 14 races in her maiden year (2013) at the track, racing for the Bean & Stout Kennel.
BDs Grayson continues to kick out stake racers while at stud. He is a paternal-line descendant of Gable Dodge through former sire champion Dodgem By Design, offering also an Oshkosh Racey line through his dam. All this constructed on the solid Denton family bloodlines through the female Aggie Mae.
Libras dam, DS Mariah, is a daughter of Kiowa Sweet Trey thus joins many other Sweet Trey females that continue to excel as producers. Marias mother, RJs Eveningstar contributes the second appearance of Gable Dodge (as her sire), while boasting an outcross in her anchor dam line via an Irish import, Expensive Gift*. Her dam, Wise Flyer (along with her dam, Wise Memory) is another branch of the unrivaled Sand Man-Maythorn Pride Irish dam-line family. Bleak Weather is the daughter from that classic cross that links to this branch of this huge Irish (well Sand Man was really American) family tree.
It is, in fact, the third time that Sand Man-Maythorn Pride show up in the pedigree, since Gable Dodge himself offers two entries, through SPs Blitz and her ancestor Lucky Artist*. Miss Hilary is the linking dam in that line.
In addition to this and the Gable Dodge linebreeding, Libras pedigree carries two entries of HBs Commanderboth through the dam, Mariah (on top with Oswald Cobblepot, and on the bottom through Wise Flyer, who was by Commander); three entries of Understood (two of those through Gable Dodge); and four distant entries of Kelly Jones (two of those by way of Unruly).
The second star to bring Gable Dodges name into the limelight was Lee Opera, now a multiple stake winner at Jacksonville. After winning the Sweet 16 Stake on Mar. 1 at the Orange Park track, Lee Opera captured the $50,000 James J. Patton Silver Cup on Apr. 5. In addition the red-brindle daughter (whelped February 2012) out of Soprano Drive-Lee Devin boasted a 10-race win streak at the north Florida track this year, and had a 21-straight quiniela- finish record (17 wins, 4 seconds) that was finally snapped on Apr. 25.
Bred and owned by Robert E. Gurley of Lee, Fl., Lee Opera gets her Gable Dodge connection through her dam, Lee Devina granddaughter of Dodge (via another former sire champion son of Dodge, Lonesome Cry). Lee Devin is linebred to Dutch Bahama (sire of CJ Ima Bahama and Dutch Dugan, sire of Bomb Threat).
Lee Operas sire, Soprano Drive, offers the Fortress* line on top (through TNT Star Wars), plus lots of Westy Whizzer blood behind Molotov and Perceive through Sopranos dam.
Once again, the Sand Man- Maythorn Pride family of Pat Daltons comes heavily into play found behind Fortress*, Gable Dodge, and Hes My Man. Downing appears six times in Lee Operas pedigree (two of those through Perceive). Still another (a third) entry of Dutch Bahama shows up behind Lee Opera through Soprano Drive (by way of Hall Of Fame dam Representation).
Lonesome Cry is the connection between Gable Dodge and our next spotlighted pup, Storm Control, who on Apr. 26 captured the $20,000 Bob Balfe Puppy Stake at Palm Beach for owner Steve Schlachter. What makes the win more impressive is that running second to Storm Control in the race was brother, Juggernautwhile another in the litter (one of the co-favorites), Ghost Buster (whod also made the finals of both the Hes My Man Classic at 5/16 and the James W. Paul Derby at 3/8 this year) ran fifth. All three are owned by Schlachter.
Storm Controland brothers are May 2012 sons of Lonesome Cry-Racy Reward, racing out of the B&B Racing Kennel. Like Lee Opera, Storm Control combines Lonesome Cry (thus Gable Dodge) with Molotov, who sired Racy Reward. Two classic bloodlines are linebred behind Racy Rewardthe first being the Ryan Farms great bitch line tracing back to Devious Lady. Shes in the bottom dam line behind Molotov, through Tingler (who was by Dillard*-Devious Lady). Simply Snazzy, as the anchor dam behind Racy Reward, was sired by Torrey Pinesanother Ryan greyhound also out of Devious Lady (only his dad was Perceive).
Which gets us to the other classic family behind Racy Reward. Perceives dam line goes back through Lucky Carmell to S.S. Jeno-Lucky Terra, who was by Pree. Youll also find Pree in the bottom half of Simply Snazzys pedigree, through her mother Fastasican (Unruly-Lani-OGrady), the latter going back to S.S. Gypsy Tango (whose mother was also Pree!) Dont forget that Blendway, Molotovs grandsire, was also by Perceiveand out of a Kunta Kinte bitch (Hall Of Famer Buzz Off). As a brother to Lucky Carmell, Kunta Kinte gives Racy Reward her fourth entry of Pree blood.
In all, there are five Downing entries behind Storm Controltwo of them through Understood and two through Perceive.

To Review...a bit of history on the Florida "decoupling" question, and who is actually working to protect the casino-invested racetracks at the expense of Florida's Racing Greyhounds.
When Its Not All About the Dogs
Most of us are already familiar with the decoupling question as it concerns Floridas casino racetracks. To review and synopsize, some of the Greyhound racetracks were granted licenses to conduct casino style wagering, contingent upon also offering live greyhound racing, because that is what they were originally licensed to do.
As part of this bargain, these casino corporations agreed to earmark a small percentage of their casino profits to supplement the purses that the greyhounds compete for, which would naturally be impacted negatively by the introduction of casino wagering on the track premises. Everyone agreed this arrangement was equitable and satisfactory.
But then, as they are wont to do, greedy casino corporations began to act like greedy casino corporations. They wanted to slither out of the deal they made with the greyhound kennels, claiming that racing was no longer a viable or profitable attraction, after years of managerial malpractice on their part, in refusing to promote racing at their casinos. As if that were not entirely predictable.
They wanted to decouple greyhound purses from the casino take. They wanted all the money for themselves. Even though it was the toil of the greyhounds and their owners and handlers that built their facilities, sustained them for decades, and which afforded them the standing to circumvent the usual licensing procedure, and to backdoor-in their casino privileges in the first place.
These casino tracks then found themselves some odd comrades, in the braintrust of the purulent anti-racing political action group, Grey2k, and their politician lackeys.
For more than a decade, Grey2k has proven to be a relentless and effective foe of greyhound racing, seemingly incapable of hitting the bedrock of deception and unethics, no matter how low they stoop and dig to defame, negatively stereotype and promote hatred toward a small class of working greyhound professionals.
The endgame for Grey2k is to criminalize wagering on greyhound racing, which since day one, had put them in opposition to these very same casino/racetracks with whom they now shared a common objective.
Grey2k finances their operations via people who infer that they are a greyhound welfare group, and that donations to them will help us help the greyhounds.
However, a perusal of their IRS-990 forms shows that they have given but a scant 1.37% of the millions they accrued in donations since 2006, toward only unspecified charities. They do no greyhound adoption, nor do they provide any hands-on greyhound welfare services.
In Florida, Grey2k was an enthusiastic supporter of decoupling, and enlisted one Senator Maria Sachs to help ramrod their agenda through.
The planned vote on decoupling legislation was to come on the heels of the release of a stunning, disturbing, and questionably timed year-old report of greyhound racing fatalities suffered at Floridas greyhound tracks.
The report documented what seemed to be an extreme number of racing related deaths over a 7-month period. Subsequent analysis of the report showed that slightly more than half of those deaths were actually attributable to racing, and not just to normal, expected cases of natural, premature mortality.
Still, to veteran greyhound professionals, the number was staggering and unprecedented. It strongly suggested that there was a glaring conflict of interest for those casino corporation/racetracks, whose job it is to maintain a safe racing surface and safe lure equipment on the racetracks they own, for the greyhounds.
The negative publicity that injuries and racing related deaths of greyhounds engendered, broadcast ad-nauseum and unquestioningly by all media, only seemed to aid and abet them in their quest to decouple from greyhound racing.
The Florida Greyhound Association felt it necessary, in light of that odious conflict of interest, to introduce a bill, a Three Point Safety Plan, called the Smith Amendment, that would mandate the racetracks provide a stipulated standard of racetrack surface maintenance, and safeguard their electronic lures, so that they presented no shock or concussion hazard to the greyhounds, in the event they failed, or in the unusual instance where a greyhound makes contact with the electrified lure.
When the decoupling legislation was brought before the Florida Legislature, it fell apart. With it, went the proposed requirement to have the attending veterinarian and trainer file injury reports, each time a greyhound suffers a racing-related injury.
In a most chilling and bizarre scene, when the issue of the Florida Greyhound Associations proposed Three Point Safety legislation (the Smith Amendment) came up for discussion, it was none other than Senator Maria Sachs, Grey2ks favorite Florida politician, who pooh-poohed the idea that the tracks were not optimally safe for those greyhounds, and who spoke against this proposed bill, which was designed to insure a better level of safety for all Florida greyhounds.
Senator Sachs has worked hand in hand with Grey2k, through thick and thin, to rid the state of greyhound racing. To help the greyhounds--on the premise that racing is cruel and abusive, because greyhounds can be injured and even suffer fatalities while racing.
Here is the thrust and text of Senator Sachs testimony before the Florida Legislature, speaking out against the need for the Florida Greyhound Associations safety proposal:
I have visited many of these tracks in the state of Florida. I found them to be well managed. I found them to have good safety precautions. I never found any of the tracksthe tracks themselvesto be kept in an unsanitary or unsafe manner
So spaketh the political handmaiden of Grey2k.
The racing injuries that they have trumpeted from the rooftops, far and wide, as evidence that an industry, a lifestyle and a culture do not even deserve to exist, apparently happen in a vacuum.
I would suppose it must be similar to the ethical and moral vacuum they personify.
Copyright, 2014

Where can I access or is somebody able to advise the current ranking of US tracks?

Thank you in advance

1. Southland closing end 2022
2. Wheeling
3. Tri State
4. Dubuque
5. Derby Lane Florida track - closing next year
6. Jacksonville Florida track - closing next year
7. Palm Beach Florida track - closing next year
8. Orlando Florida track - closing next year
9. Daytona Florida track - closing next year
10. Birmingham

Cheers

Geoff Collins wrote:

Jimmy Corbo wrote: Where can I access or is somebody able to advise the current ranking of US tracks? 1. Southland closing end 2022 2. Wheeling 3. Tri State 4. Dubuque 5. Derby Lane Florida track - closing next year 6. Jacksonville Florida track - closing next year 7. Palm Beach Florida track - closing next year 8. Orlando Florida track - closing next year 9. Daytona Florida track - closing next year 10. Birmingham

It's basically finished over there unless the State Governments wake up and work out they could make a pile of money controlling the gambling flow on the sport

Yes it certainly is a sad state of affairs, as discussed in the thread the regulatory set up had the sport doomed to fail eventually.

A sidebar, if you have the opportunity watch an ESPN doco called "What the hell happened to Jai Alai", it is part of the "ESPN Shorts" series. It was a sport tied to a Casino due to the Casino operating regulations of the time and it illustrates the demise of the sport once Casino operating regulations changed, sound familiar....

I hope you are well.

Cheers

"It's basically finished over there unless the State Governments wake up and work out they could make a pile of money controlling the gambling flow on the sport".

I like the idea but governments of any stripe don't work that way - otherwise we would have seen Aus states reform the racing industry, too.

Voters tell governments what to do. They have done precisely that in several US states - formally so in Massachussets and Florida - and nearly so in NSW and actually in ACT.

If you fix the public you will fix the industry.

I think you are missing the point

The Governments are quite happy to see people lose all their hard earned in Casino's and am pretty sure they would get a cut out of that

All they need to do is regulate the gambling and the welfare issues like they have here and they will have another revenue stream to milk

The people don't really know what is good or bad for them...play slots and lose all your money or gamble it on dogs....either way its gambling

Not at all. Whether USA or here, governments get a cut out of any sort of gambling. They certainly do in US.

The two questions up for grabs are (a) nominally, more gambling outlets means more tax income and (b) whether the greyhound industry can overcome rising opposition - ie by re-structuring and promoting to the public.

It would be a rare government which willingly let an income wither away. It has happened twice here only because of trenchant opposition from antis - ie although in a minority they were sufficient to cause a policy swing to ban racing. In the two named US states they asked the public and the public said no. That tells us that the US industry (and ours) have not done enough to convince the public that greyhounds are a good thing. Demos in the UK are trying to do the same thing.